Horizon League Preseason Poll

[zvillehaze]

Lazerus weighs in with his opinions:

http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/2011/10/my-horizon-league-preseason-ba.html

Things are so wide-open this year that it's hard to argue with any opinion.  He does shed some insight in stating that he votes based on what guys have accomplished, not what he expects them to accomplish.  If that's the case, then they should just take the votes from last year's post-season voting and remove the guys who aren't coming back.

I've got no idea what to expect from tomorrow's poll announcement.  As Mark (and Dayton's Kyle Nagel) have pointed out, it's difficult to know what to assume about guys who are/may be away from their team for an extended period of time.  Per their message board, Detroit had three scholarship guys not in uniform for their first practice.  Overall, it's hard to argue with anything having to do with the preseason poll.  As Mark points every year, it's pretty meaningless.

[wh]

He says Broekhoff is 6-8.  He's listed as 6-7 on this year's roster.  He is 6-6 on last year's roster.  His listed weight is 215, up from 200 a year ago.  Will the real Ryan Broekhoff please stand up?

[vu72]

He says Broekhoff is 6-8.  He's listed as 6-7 on this year's roster.  He is 6-6 on last year's roster.  His listed weight is 215, up from 200 a year ago.  Will the real Ryan Broekhoff please stand up?

He'll be 6'10" by next year!  I'm pretty sure its the union food or the stretching machine Rod Moore has! 

[valpopal]

The program Saturday night had Ryan at 6'7" and 215 lbs. In Australia, Ryan's height was listed at 198 cm (6'6"). His weight was listed at 84 kg (185 lbs.). I am 5' 11" and 185 lbs. Standing next to Ryan during our conversation Saturday night, I'd have to guess the 6'6" is accurate in real world measurements (maybe at most 6' 6 1/2"), but in basketball at least an inch is always added; therefore, I'll give him the rounded up 6'7" for the program. Also, Ryan seemed much more solid than when he first came to Valpo as a freshman. Standing beside him, I'd have to say he's about 30 lbs. (all muscle) more than I am, and the 215 seems in the right ballpark now for Ryan's weight. When Ryan stood next to Kevin during our talks, Kevin was at least an inch and a half taller, and definitely 15 lbs. heavier than Ryan, so his listing at 6'8" and 230 lbs. seemed accurate.

At first, I thought the 5'11" on the program for Erik Buggs was an exaggeration. However, standing next to Erik, he seemed to be about 5'11" (maybe 5' 10 1/2"); but I would guess his weight to be more than the 155 listed, perhaps even closer to 165 or 170. Still, I was impressed when Erik dunked during the practice session.

Vashil is the player who can benefit by the weight room and gaining more weight. He was listed in the program at 6'10" and 220 lbs. The 6'10" is most likely correct, but as Bryce demonstrated Saturday, Vashil's wingspan is amazing at about 7'6" and allows him to play taller. However, when I stood next to Vashil and spoke with him, I felt he would need to add 25 lbs. to be a stronger force under the basket.

[covufan]

The program Saturday night had Ryan at 6'7" and 215 lbs. In Australia, Ryan's height was listed at 198 cm (6'6"). His weight was listed at 84 kg (185 lbs.). I am 5' 11" and 185 lbs. Standing next to Ryan during our conversation Saturday night, I'd have to guess the 6'6" is accurate in real world measurements (maybe at most 6' 6 1/2"), but in basketball at least an inch is always added; therefore, I'll give him the rounded up 6'7" for the program. Also, Ryan seemed much more solid than when he first came to Valpo as a freshman. Standing beside him, I'd have to say he's about 30 lbs. (all muscle) more than I am, and the 215 seems in the right ballpark now for Ryan's weight. When Ryan stood next to Kevin during our talks, Kevin was at least an inch and a half taller, and definitely 15 lbs. heavier than Ryan, so his listing at 6'8" and 230 lbs. seemed accurate.

At first, I thought the 5'11" on the program for Erik Buggs was an exaggeration. However, standing next to Erik, he seemed to be about 5'11" (maybe 5' 10 1/2"); but I would guess his weight to be more than the 155 listed, perhaps even closer to 165 or 170. Still, I was impressed when Erik dunked during the practice session.

Vashil is the player who can benefit by the weight room and gaining more weight. He was listed in the program at 6'10" and 220 lbs. The 6'10" is most likely correct, but as Bryce demonstrated Saturday, Vashil's wingspan is amazing at about 6'6" and allows him to play taller. However, when I stood next to Vashil and spoke with him, I felt he would need to add 25 lbs. to be a stronger force under the basket.

A 6'10" man with 6'6" wingspan has short arms.  Did you mean 7'6" wingspan?

[valpopal]

Yes, as I previously mentioned in another thread, Vashil's wingspan is 7'6": thanks for the correction on my typo. I will correct it in my post above as well.

[valpopal]

Horizon League Preseason Poll announced: Valpo picked 5th, behind Butler, Detroit, Cleveland State, and Milwaukee. Behind us: Green Bay, Youngstown State, Wright State, Loyola, UIC. Broekhoff selected as preseason pick for 2nd-team all conference.

[vu72]

I like it.  We will run under the radar till mid-season.  I would bet on a higher finish, but, as is the case for virtually all the teams, we will need to wait and see how things gel and how the bigs perform.

[wh]

The program Saturday night had Ryan at 6'7" and 215 lbs. In Australia, Ryan's height was listed at 198 cm (6'6"). His weight was listed at 84 kg (185 lbs.). I am 5' 11" and 185 lbs. Standing next to Ryan during our conversation Saturday night, I'd have to guess the 6'6" is accurate in real world measurements (maybe at most 6' 6 1/2"), but in basketball at least an inch is always added; therefore, I'll give him the rounded up 6'7" for the program. Also, Ryan seemed much more solid than when he first came to Valpo as a freshman. Standing beside him, I'd have to say he's about 30 lbs. (all muscle) more than I am, and the 215 seems in the right ballpark now for Ryan's weight. When Ryan stood next to Kevin during our talks, Kevin was at least an inch and a half taller, and definitely 15 lbs. heavier than Ryan, so his listing at 6'8" and 230 lbs. seemed accurate.

At first, I thought the 5'11" on the program for Erik Buggs was an exaggeration. However, standing next to Erik, he seemed to be about 5'11" (maybe 5' 10 1/2"); but I would guess his weight to be more than the 155 listed, perhaps even closer to 165 or 170. Still, I was impressed when Erik dunked during the practice session.

Vashil is the player who can benefit by the weight room and gaining more weight. He was listed in the program at 6'10" and 220 lbs. The 6'10" is most likely correct, but as Bryce demonstrated Saturday, Vashil's wingspan is amazing at about 6'6" and allows him to play taller. However, when I stood next to Vashil and spoke with him, I felt he would need to add 25 lbs. to be a stronger force under the basket.

A 6'10" man with 6'6" wingspan has short arms.  Did you mean 7'6" wingspan?

I understand the significance of long arms, but "wingspan" doesn't mean much to me.  Can someone put it in more meaningful terms, like a guy his height with that wingspan can touch the rim flatfooted, or something like that? 

[valpopal]

I understand the significance of long arms, but "wingspan" doesn't mean much to me.  Can someone put it in more meaningful terms, like a guy his height with that wingspan can touch the rim flatfooted, or something like that? 

At the Saturday night program, Bryce had Vashil demonstrate his wingspan, and showed how he could just about touch the rim flatfooted. Bryce also explained this as a more important attribute for other reasons, especially for players under the basket blocking shots, pulling down rebounds, shooting over an opponent, taking up space in the lane, and clearing out along the baseline.

[vu72]

If this doesn't get your blood pumping, better check your pulse!

Valpo vs Butler - HD

[zvillehaze]

Lazerus weighs in with his opinions:

http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/2011/10/my-horizon-league-preseason-ba.html

Things are so wide-open this year that it's hard to argue with any opinion.  He does shed some insight in stating that he votes based on what guys have accomplished, not what he expects them to accomplish.  If that's the case, then they should just take the votes from last year's post-season voting and remove the guys who aren't coming back.

I've got no idea what to expect from tomorrow's poll announcement.  As Mark (and Dayton's Kyle Nagel) have pointed out, it's difficult to know what to assume about guys who are/may be away from their team for an extended period of time.  Per their message board, Detroit had three scholarship guys not in uniform for their first practice.  Overall, it's hard to argue with anything having to do with the preseason poll.  As Mark points every year, it's pretty meaningless.

Here are some comments from Green Bay's beat writer, Rob Demovsky.  http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blogs020101&plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&U=27a603c3-2c04-43ef-9442-a4601d300179&plckPostId=Blog%3a27a603c3-2c04-43ef-9442-a4601d300179Post%3a8ab2b7b6-a634-4ed0-9e36-ed54041bfff1&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

Interesting to see his thoughts on voting for all-league teams is 180 degrees from Lazerus's.  FWIW, I tend to agree with Demovsky.  Lazerus is very comfortable in the team poll imagining that Detroit will do something they've never proven they can do (ie. win more than 10 games despite having the "most talented" roster in the league), but isn't comfortable imagining that Marshall, after leading the entire NCAA tournament in offensive rebounds last year and making the USA U-19 team, can be an all-league caliber player once he's getting more than 15 minutes a game.  Same goes for Alec Brown.  Excluding either of these guys in favor of D'Andray Brown is somewhat quizzical.

I'd be curious to know if the HL sends out any "voting guidelines" with the ballots.  It's clear different voters approach this very differently.

[zvillehaze]

If this doesn't get your blood pumping, better check your pulse!

I get much more excited for games played in March and April, but that video was nicely done.  Looking forward to an exciting year!

[wh]

Lazerus is very comfortable in the team poll imagining that Detroit will do something they've never proven they can do (ie. win more than 10 games despite having the "most talented" roster in the league), but isn't comfortable imagining that Marshall, after leading the entire NCAA tournament in offensive rebounds last year and making the USA U-19 team, can be an all-league caliber player once he's getting more than 15 minutes a game.  Same goes for Alec Brown.  Excluding either of these guys in favor of D'Andray Brown is somewhat quizzical.

I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but if I were voting I would have had Brown and Marshall at 9 and 10 instead of Eargle and Smith.  Only after YSU proves they can be competitive in the HL would I ever place one of their players in the top 10.  This is strictly a PC pick.  As to Smith vs. Marshall, I think Marshall has far more upside potential.  Smith benefitted greatly from all the attention other teams had to pay to Howard.  He has yet to prove anything as a go-to post player. 

[zvillehaze]

wh ... I'm not really looking for an answer and don't disagree with anything you say.  Marshall and Smith need to prove they can take a step forward ... just like Broekhoff needs to prove he can score when Wood and Johnson aren't drawing all the attention.

With so much turnover on most teams, it will be fun to see which teams/players step up.

[valpopal]

Here are the actual voting results (first-place votes in parentheses):

1. Butler (28)                    468
2. Detroit (19)                   453
3. Cleveland State (2)      388
4. Milwaukee (1)              356
5. Valparaiso                    255
6. Green Bay                    247
7. Youngstown State        195
8. Wright State                 157
9. Loyola                          145
10. UIC                               86

Interestingly, as unpredictable as the league may be this year, apparently voters see the conference more predictably, as clearly tiered with the following structure: Butler vs. Detroit for 1 &  2; Cleveland State vs. Milwaukee for 3 & 4; Valpo vs. Green Bay for 5 & 6; Youngstown State at 7; Wright State vs. Loyola for 8 & 9; UIC at 10. It will be interesting to see which teams, if any, surprise everyone on the basketball court to breaking out of the tier in which they have been placed on paper. I look forward to the actual games.

[wh]

wh ... I'm not really looking for an answer and don't disagree with anything you say.  Marshall and Smith need to prove they can take a step forward ... just like Broekhoff needs to prove he can score when Wood and Johnson aren't drawing all the attention.

With so much turnover on most teams, it will be fun to see which teams/players step up.

This year's conversation would be a lot different had Mack and Wood chosen to return.  Two of the guys in the Top 5 would drop down, 2 others would fall off the list (interesting to ponder which two), and we wouldn't be talking about who should have made the list based on "potential."

[vu72]

I guess this just hit me:  How can the press et al vote three Detroit guys to the first team and then vote Detroit second??  By the same token, how can they vote Butler first with only one guy being named all conference and that being a second team spot?

I think it makes more sense to have Valpo picked fifth with one guy making the second team than this goofy beauty contest call a pre-season poll.

If anything it says that the media has the highest degree of respect for Brad Stevens' ability and rightly so--or, the fact that the media has the lowest regard for the Detroit coaching crew.

Just my small observation.  Let's get the darn season underway so none of this stuff means anything.

[dylanrocks]

Woods: preseason picks don't add up

http://blogs.indystar.com/butler/2011/10....d-up-at-butler/

As usual, outstanding beat coverage by David Woods.

[historyman]

Just me small observation.  Let's get the darn season underway so none of this stuff means anything.

It's what a fan can do at this time to keep the momentum going into the season. It means nothing when the season begins but is fun. You have my enthusiasm for getting the season started and putting this football season behind us. Although I want football to improve, slowly at least if not drastically but obviously it is basketball and not football that most Valpo athletics fans truly appreciate.

[valpopal]

Meanwhile, the Valpo women, despite returning "the top four scorers from a year ago," were picked 9th in the Horizon League Preseason Poll, with only Youngstown State behind them:

http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/green-bay-tabbed-to-win-brown-chosen-player-of-the-year-in-womens-basketball-preseason-poll.html

[valpotx]

Very odd that a preseason player of the year would come from the team selected to finish last?!?!

[wh]

Meanwhile, the Valpo women, despite returning "the top four scorers from a year ago," were picked 9th in the Horizon League Preseason Poll, with only Youngstown State behind them:

http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/green-bay-tabbed-to-win-brown-chosen-player-of-the-year-in-womens-basketball-preseason-poll.html

Looks like the 3rd consecutive year of total wins in the single digits.  For those who follow the women's program closer than I do:

- Have we officially become the doormat of HL Women's basketball, or is there hope on the horizon (no pun intended)?
- Will Freeman be held to account for our unacceptable record since joining the HL?   
- This is a serious question - Is women's bb important enough to the university's image that anyone other than the players and their families should care how we do?  In other words, does it really matter in a tangible sense whether we finish 9th or 3rd, for example?

[valporun]

Meanwhile, the Valpo women, despite returning "the top four scorers from a year ago," were picked 9th in the Horizon League Preseason Poll, with only Youngstown State behind them:

http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/green-bay-tabbed-to-win-brown-chosen-player-of-the-year-in-womens-basketball-preseason-poll.html

Looks like the 3rd consecutive year of total wins in the single digits.  For those who follow the women's program closer than I do:

- Have we officially become the doormat of HL Women's basketball, or is there hope on the horizon (no pun intended)?
- Will Freeman be held to account for our unacceptable record since joining the HL?   
- This is a serious question - Is women's bb important enough to the university's image that anyone other than the players and their families should care how we do?  In other words, does it really matter in a tangible sense whether we finish 9th or 3rd, for example?

I don't feel like we're the doormat of the HL, just really undersized or slow compared with the top tier of the league. A lot of our struggles to win have been due to the massive amount of injuries that our frontcourt picks up. I don't know if it has anything to do with offseason conditioning, what kind of work is being done in practice, or some other unforeseen issue, but we have really had some problems with health on the women's team since moving to the HL.

I do feel that Coach Freeman should be held accountable, but I'm not sure if he's fully responsible, or if one of his assistant coaches is more accountable for the health of the team during practices? Sure, our record has been terrible since going to the HL, but I factor the injuries in the frontcourt being one of the biggest issues.

In terms of women's bb being important enough to the university's image, if the university factored that, then we would have lost women's basketball a long time ago. Most of the image problem is due to everyone only looking at the record and statistics, but when Freeman uses a small bench, mostly upperclass, and those who finally work their way into his system, he's lost some of the talent from the freshmen and sophomore classes because they don't have the drive, desire, talent to work to get into the lineup. With women's basketball, a lot of our recruits come from conferences where they were the big name or the only name, and they never seemed to have problems getting the ball, taking shots, scoring points, or doing the things they need to work on in college to be able to do it again, so they get real discouraged and transfer or quit altogether. I'll be upset if the girls get 9th place after showing they could be higher up, but if they don't show they want to finish higher than 9th, then its time to clean house in the coaching staff. Coach Freeman is a good guy, but if the wins aren't coming, players aren't staying healthy, or the improvement just isn't coming across, then maybe it's time to look for someone new?

[vu72]

I would be shocked and highly disappointed if we finish in the bottom half.

We have three seniors and four juniors plus a half dozen player 6' or taller including Lang at 6'4" and plenty of size.  We have a half dozen All State players and a China trip under our belts to develop team unity.

If we finish ninth or even close then I'm with those who are calling for a coaching change.  Keith is as fine a person as you can find.  We need wins.