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[FWalum]

With all due respect to usc4valpo and others (who are clearly thoughtful and care a great deal about Valpo), I do not understand why the football program continues to exist. It is a major cost center in an environment where there are other priorities (including improvement in the ARC). From my perspective, there are two reasons given that attempt to justify why this program exists: 1. it can generate enthusiasm and identification among the student body, and 2. it attracts male students who might not otherwise attend Valpo.

To point 1: what is the actual interest from the student body? My opinion is that there would only be significant interest if the team, at its competitive level, was among the very best (i.e., winning the conference and going to the FCS playoffs at least every other year). This is extraordinarily unlikely, even if there were more financial investment.

To point 2: (the economist's view) if you took all of the money spent on the football program and used half of it to attract students (via scholarships), do you end up at the same enrollment with less cost? Alternatively, if you replaced football with a sport like lacrosse, do you attract more students (because the sport can have male and female teams) at the same or less cost?

Other relevant points to this discussion:
-Of course, there is a small set of alums who would not donate any further money to Valpo if football were eliminated. Most donors have one or two things that, if they changed or were removed, they would eliminate their donations. Always a big problem for any non-profit institution.
-Costs sunk (another economic view) should never figure into decisions of how to move forward. There is no valid argument for, "we already did ________, therefore we must do _________ or continue _______."
-Given safety concerns, the number of high school football players is likely to continue to decline. Indeed, there are more and more high schools that cannot field enough players for a team.

Google what happened to University of Evansville when they eliminated football.  I was on a board there in 2002-2006 and it was a constant issue with some of the alums that affected donations for quite some time.
A Decade Without Football
We will and probably have taken a big hit with the closing of the Law School.  The perception of a declining school is not an easy thing to overcome as UE found out, it affected all areas of athletics including the basketball program. Eliminating football would just exacerbate the negative perceptions already started by the Law School situation.

[valpofb16]

I would have to guess via donations and 100 tuitions, pay me games  , ticket sales, football actually profits.

I realize there is a large group of people who want to put that money into basketball but let's not be naive.

We've competed last 3 years as a program. (I know we went 2-9 usc4valpo but we were in many games) We're not cheating and overfunding our program like few of our competitors have been caught doing . Much of the attrition rate has been due to VU student Life off the field.

University is behind the 8 ball in several, I mean several areas

[vu72]

with a President's  club level for entertaining alums and the like.

Seeing that the north side of the ARC is the chairback side and that it is the side where expected expansion and club level expansion might be planned, why not build a club level that would extend over the area between the ARC and Brown Field and make it into a Club level that could serve for both Basketball and Football!  How cool would that be??

[VULB#62]

Works for me 

[usc4valpo]

Fb16 - not sure what mean by attrition. could you please elaborate?

[valpofb16]

Football team from personal experience. Although it appears overall numbers for University are down.

[JD24]

It floats (actually sinks) my boat because seeing us dead last in the nation, even as a nonscholarship football program, is embarrassing to the university. Where is the progress? Where is the pride from the university? Why accept this over such a prolonged period and think this is acceptable? How the heck did Valpo drop down after being 6-5?

Ratings? Who cares? The PFL teams, with a couple of exceptions, are going to contain the bottom 10. Progress? Ask Dave Cecchini. You'll find him in PA. Pride from the University? What would you like the University to do? How about hire a new coach? Oh. That's been done. Acceptable? Who thinks it's acceptable? How did they drop down? Pennsylvania...again.

[vu84v2]

I would have to guess via donations and 100 tuitions, pay me games  , ticket sales, football actually profits.

I doubt that this is true, but you nor I have the data to support our position (I honestly would like you to be correct).

[usc4valpo]

I will bet that it at least evens out and is not cash hole.

[vu72]

I will bet that it at least evens out and is not cash hole.

Home attendance for last year was about 11,000.  If 25% were free, then not counting hot dog sales, that leaves 7500  paying a $10 ticket price = $75,000.  Add to that about 100 guys paying roughly half of the $54,000 sticker price and you add another $2,700,000, for a grand total of about $2,800,000 or so, plus the buy game revenue.  I have no idea what flying the team to California and North Carolina will cost,nor the equipment cost, coaches salaries, tape and trainers etc, but I'm just guessing that, as usc4valpo suggests, it may even out, and is not a cash hole.

[FieldGoodie05]

I will bet that it at least evens out and is not cash hole.

Home attendance for last year was about 11,000.  If 25% were free, then not counting hot dog sales, that leaves 7500  paying a $10 ticket price = $75,000.  Add to that about 100 guys paying roughly half of the $54,000 sticker price and you add another $2,700,000, for a grand total of about $2,800,000 or so, plus the buy game revenue.  I have no idea what flying the team to California and North Carolina will cost,nor the equipment cost, coaches salaries, tape and trainers etc, but I'm just guessing that, as usc4valpo suggests, it may even out, and is not a cash hole.

I'd have to agree.  The track and field coach (years ago) was given directives to fill out the "roster" for just such reasons.  Athletics adds values and dollars, especially on large roster sports teams.

[VULB#62]

I will bet that it at least evens out and is not cash hole.

Home attendance for last year was about 11,000.  If 25% were free, then not counting hot dog sales, that leaves 7500  paying a $10 ticket price = $75,000.  Add to that about 100 guys paying roughly half of the $54,000 sticker price and you add another $2,700,000, for a grand total of about $2,800,000 or so, plus the buy game revenue.  I have no idea what flying the team to California and North Carolina will cost,nor the equipment cost, coaches salaries, tape and trainers etc, but I'm just guessing that, as usc4valpo suggests, it may even out, and is not a cash hole.

I'd have to agree.  The track and field coach (years ago) was given directives to fill out the "roster" for just such reasons.  Athletics adds values and dollars, especially on large roster sports teams.

This supports adding men's and women's lacrosse  . Sorry, didn't mean to skew this thread any more than it has been skewed already. 

[usc4valpo]

I still propose hockey but it will never happen - Valpo throws nickels like manhole covers when it comes to athletics.

[FWalum]

Seeing that the north side of the ARC is the chairback side and that it is the side where expected expansion and club level expansion might be planned, why not build a club level that would extend over the area between the ARC and Brown Field and make it into a Club level that could serve for both Basketball and Football!  How cool would that be??

Love this idea!

[VULB#62]

Seeing that the north side of the ARC is the chairback side and that it is the side where expected expansion and club level expansion might be planned, why not build a club level that would extend over the area between the ARC and Brown Field and make it into a Club level that could serve for both Basketball and Football!  How cool would that be??

Love this idea!

I love the idea of a shared club level, but I believe the physical distance between any ARC northerly expansion and an expanded home grandstand for Brown Field, along with a need to preserve vehicle access to the rear areas of the ARC, would preclude a single club overlooking both venues. HOWEVER, why not build the club (along with some premium suites overlooking the arena) in the new ARC addition and connect the club area to an indoor seating level in the new Brown Field press box via a sky bridge?  The club area, located between the arena suites and Brown Field press box, would serve as a very attractive connecting space.

[vu84v2]

I will bet that it at least evens out and is not cash hole.

Home attendance for last year was about 11,000.  If 25% were free, then not counting hot dog sales, that leaves 7500  paying a $10 ticket price = $75,000.  Add to that about 100 guys paying roughly half of the $54,000 sticker price and you add another $2,700,000, for a grand total of about $2,800,000 or so, plus the buy game revenue.  I have no idea what flying the team to California and North Carolina will cost,nor the equipment cost, coaches salaries, tape and trainers etc, but I'm just guessing that, as usc4valpo suggests, it may even out, and is not a cash hole.

Nicely done analysis, but you would need to add infrastructure maintenance costs that are unique to football and any expected capital spends going forward to sustain the program. One might also argue that you could gain that substantial student revenue via other means that are less costly. Still, you offer some very effective arguments.

Side note: I am always very impressed with the discussions and arguments related to the university on this site. We are all far better when we debate with respect and intelligence. And that is why this is the only site in which I post and engage in discussions.

[JD24]

For most schools, sports is a loser in terms of cost and that is for a variety of reasons. In general, in this country, collegiate athletics is considered to be a part of college life. Sure most sports can be eliminated and schools can just attempt to attract students based on academics. Is that what we want?

[usc4valpo]

Didn't Howard Cosell philosophize that "sports is the toy department of life". I love sports. It adds spice to life, but it is not life. JLo's latest movie is of much high significance.

[JD24]

Anyone overly giddy about Valpo's two upcoming games vs. Div II teams may wish to consider this:

First and maybe foremost, Valpo lost to Truman St. last year although we'll get a read on Truman St because they play Drake next week (I think).

Today, Kentucky State which was ranking 3rd from the bottom of Div II and which was winless last year beat NEC's Robert Morris which isn't very good but you'd think they could handle pretty easily one of the worst teams at Div II.

Kentucky State was rated 165 of 168, Truman St. is 58 of 168 and Charleston is 112 of 168.

[usc4valpo]

Why would it be a surprise that. div 2 team  could beat Valpo? there are many, many Div 3 teams that could beat Valpo. Good call JD24.

[JD24]

Why would it be a surprise that. div 2 team  could beat Valpo? there are many, many Div 3 teams that could beat Valpo. Good call JD24.

There are some DIII teams which could beat Valpo. I don't think it's many many or whatever.

[usc4valpo]

I can name at least 3 div 3 or NAIA teams in Iowa  that would.

[VULB#62]

Need to point out that NAIA schools can offer FB scholarships. So I would lump them closer to D-II than D-III.

[JD24]

Need to point out that NAIA schools can offer FB scholarships. So I would lump them closer to D-II than D-III.

Don't ruin a good wallow.
You mentioned in the other thread that Drake went down to Truman St 10-7 with Truman putting up almost no offense. Drake must be down this year offensively. Butler also had to go to overtime to beat their NAIA opponent Indiana Wesleyan.

[usc4valpo]

How much athletic scholarship money do Div 2 and NAIA athletes get, and at least the end does it pretty much even out with Div. 1 non scholarship schools?