Labarbera needs to step down

[JD24]

AD has said in the past the football program results in amongst the largest groupings of alumni donations. If this is or remains the case, it's not going anywhere.

Sports in themselves are not simply about wins and losses in terms of value to the school.

[usc4valpo]

24, I agree on the donation part, but goals certainly need to be set in place for football success. Right now football is there just to say it is there. The record in the past 15 years has been very poor, and students and alums are apathetic toward the program. Attention needs to be placed to make football better. All the Valpo alums I work with believe football needs to be dropped. Yes, it may be more than wins and losses, but going 2-9 and 1-11 should certainly not be the standard

[vu84v2]

Two areas to consider from this discussion:

1. Strategy. Good strategy requires not only considering what new ventures to consider, but also making hard decisions about where not to invest and where to divest or discontinue. Good organizations do not invest heavily in everything - they make hard decisions that do not please everyone. Universities tend to try to please everyone. I do not have the numbers on the football program, not do I have cost figures for the men's soccer and tennis programs, but hard decisions need to be made to avoid being mediocre at everything (or, indeed, sustaining the primary enterprise).

2. The 'Great Person' theory. In various comments, it seems that people think that everything would be better if we had the mythical 'great person'. Someone who inspires everyone to always perform at their highest level. Someone who will magically get people to donate millions. Such people do not exist (or are extremely rare and hard to identify). While I think leaders matter, many people tend to grossly underestimate the constraining forces from the organization, the economy, etc. If you rationally believe that you can get someone who can realistically move the athletic department towards better results, then maybe consider succession but really think about the effectiveness of the current AD. But, if you believe that you need to get someone else because you can find the mythical 'great person', then you are more likely to hire someone who is either very ineffective or makes everything worse. The 'big bet' or 'all in' approach to leadership is far more likely to lead to the organization dying than flourishing.

[FWalum]

24, I agree on the donation part, but goals certainly need to be set in place for football success. Right now football is there just to say it is there. The record in the past 15 years has been very poor, and students and alums are apathetic toward the program. Attention needs to be placed to make football better. All the Valpo alums I work with believe football needs to be dropped. Yes, it may be more than wins and losses, but going 2-9 and 1-11 should certainly not be the standard

See below for the response I gave to usc4valpo on November 15, 2012, 12:33:15 PM. NOTHING HAS CHANGED!  I agree with usc4valpo that goals need to be set and coach Fox needs to work toward meeting them, given the right resources by the administration. If Fox can't get it done (I am very encouraged by coach's attitude) then we need to access both the amount of resources given to the program and the coaching staff. We are not dropping football, just talk to anyone that has done it at this level and they will tell you it is a nightmare. It took UE at least 10 years to recover and many would tell you that it still hasn't completely come back.

It appears that the "get rid of football" movement has gained a little more popularity on the board, but those in support of that action really have not thought this through.  Having been on an auxiliary board at the University of Evansville I can tell you that many people there wish the decision to drop football would have never taken place in 1997.  This decision had a much larger ripple effect then anticipated, fundraising was severely hampered and many disgruntled football alumni and current players spoke ill of the way things were handled by the administration.  Even student admissions was affected by a perception that the school was having money problems and was in decline. Just last month an "Athletic Leadership Team" consisting of Aces football alums, athletic department staff and faculty worked to make a report alongside experts from Carr Sports Associates, a consulting firm run by former University of Houston Athletic Director Bill Carr to the university trustees asking for a decision concerning bringing football back to UE.  They were turned down because of the estimated 10 million dollar price tag associated with restarting the program.  The wound still festers.  If anyone on this board thinks that shutting down the program would be a simple solution contained solely in the athletic department they are being extremely naive.

The current response by the soccer alums, some on this board, are but a trickle compared to the tsunami that would happen if football were cut.

[usc4valpo]

When I refer to the cutting programs, be clear that I am not just referring to football. You want to be cautious of diluting programs.

However, regarding football, students and alums are not attending games and the product for the past 15 years has been well below par. Keeping status quo with chronic apathy is a state of insanity.

[JD24]

When I refer to the cutting programs, be clear that I am not just referring to football. You want to be cautious of diluting programs. However, regarding football, students and alums are not attending games and the product for the past 15 years has been well below par. Keeping status quo with chronic apathy is a state of insanity.

Insanity would be cutting the program which provides the largest segment or amongst the largest segment of donations to the school and may fund a good portion of the athletic program with the money game(s).

[vu84v2]

When I refer to the cutting programs, be clear that I am not just referring to football. You want to be cautious of diluting programs. However, regarding football, students and alums are not attending games and the product for the past 15 years has been well below par. Keeping status quo with chronic apathy is a state of insanity.

Insanity would be cutting the program which provides the largest segment or amongst the largest segment of donations to the school and may fund a good portion of the athletic program with the money game(s).

What data, not guesses, do you have to support the position that the football program is strongly associated with the amount and frequency of donations to the university?

[usc4valpo]

After listening to 24, it may be true that non-scholarship football is the cash cow for Valparaiso, and the reason it exists

[JD24]

When I refer to the cutting programs, be clear that I am not just referring to football. You want to be cautious of diluting programs. However, regarding football, students and alums are not attending games and the product for the past 15 years has been well below par. Keeping status quo with chronic apathy is a state of insanity.

Insanity would be cutting the program which provides the largest segment or amongst the largest segment of donations to the school and may fund a good portion of the athletic program with the money game(s).

What data, not guesses, do you have to support the position that the football program is strongly associated with the amount and frequency of donations to the university?

Comment from MLB some years ago. Could have changed of course but unlikely.

[usc4valpo]

If Valparaiso is making revenue on football based on various factors (enrollment, donations, games against NDSU, etc.) to make it profitable, then I can understand why football is provided given the apathy and consistent poor performance - in the Sagarin, Valpo is now 256 of 256. Unless you are profitable, having football without success metrics and commitment is insane.

also, to reply to FWAlum, is it correct to assume that what happened at Evansville will happen at Valparaiso? 2 different schools, 2 different locations, 2 different missions

[NWIGuy]

I'm not a Valpo alum, but I am a big fan/follower of small college football. When a work opportunity brought me to NWI several years ago, I started following VU FB. Something I've often wondered is...

WHERE IS THE FINANCIAL SUPPORT OF THE VALPO FOOTBALL ALUMNI?!

100 years of VU football would suggest that there MUST BE some football alums who have done well enough to get behind the program. Seems like other schools with similar alumni bases, enrollment size, etc. have athletic facilities, or scoreboards, or pressboxes, or SOMETHING bearing the name of an alumni family or alumni-owned business or alumni-managed foundation.

Any speculation as to why this hasn't been the case at Valpo?

[crusader05]

They have funded things like a new locker room and updated weight room and offices as well as I believe other more performance based things. I believe that outside of basketball Football has the best facilities and support in that way and much of that is due to donors.

[NWIGuy]

If that's the case O5, then that's good hear, except...

If those smallish (but important!) upgrades are the results of football alumni donations, it would be interesting to see what athletic dept. funds, if any, are being spent on beyond basic operating expenses (travel, officials, salaries, etc.).

Are there ANY athletic dept. funds being budgeted annually to improve ANY component of the program?

[vu72]

If that's the case O5, then that's good hear, except...

If those smallish (but important!) upgrades are the results of football alumni donations, it would be interesting to see what athletic dept. funds, if any, are being spent on beyond basic operating expenses (travel, officials, salaries, etc.).

Are there ANY athletic dept. funds being budgeted annually to improve ANY component of the program?

[/b]

Clearly adding a full time weight training coach dedicated to just the football team is a significant commitment.  No other program, to my knowledge, has such a dedicated coach who isn't shared with other sports.

[NWIGuy]

Adding a full-time dedicated S & C coach to staff was HUGE!! BIG step in the right direction. But here's a question...

Was that position funded SEPARATELY and IN ADDITION TO the rest of the football coaching staff? OR... Did Fox decide to allocate his coaching salary budget in such a way that the S & C position is funded, but some younger position coaches are making significantly less than they were in the past?

If the budget "pool" was increased to include a S & C position, then that is, indeed, a significant contribution from the athletic dept.

[crusadermoe]

This football "profit" debate has been around for a while.  The athletics department per se takes a pretty good loss on football.   

The reason to keep football is for enrollment in the University as a whole. Football allows you draw a few dozen more male students who want to play football as a secondary reason to choose Valpo.  The football interest combines with an academic reason.  No one chooses Valpo (or any other non-scholarship school) solely to play football.  But they might choose NOT to go to Valpo if football isn't available to them.   

Every university struggles to get a high enough male to female ratio now.  Football helps with that balance.  I am just re-cycling old arguments for the benefit of some who may have missed them over the years.

[Lurking Dog]

The reason to keep football is for enrollment in the University as a whole...

Every university struggles to get a high enough male to female ratio now.  Football helps with that balance.  I am just re-cycling old arguments for the benefit of some who may have missed them over the years.

Jacksonville apparently missed your argument.  They dropped football today.

[vu72]

The reason to keep football is for enrollment in the University as a whole...

Every university struggles to get a high enough male to female ratio now.  Football helps with that balance.  I am just re-cycling old arguments for the benefit of some who may have missed them over the years.

Jacksonville apparently missed your argument.  They dropped football today.

And they are already 64% female. The second worst home attendance in the PFL.  Very small undergrad enrollment (2292) Interestingly enough, they are offering a full ride scholarship to any undergrad football player who stays in school.  Doesn't make much sense to me.

[VUOR63]

I realize I'm late to the party but football at small schools (especially non-scholarship football) = male enrollment.  No football means you become much more female.  At a Christian school during a time period where Christian masculinity and male leadership is sorely lacking in the world, I don't think Valpo can really achieve its mission without having a football team.  As a Lutheran university you need to churn out men looking to make an impact in the worlds they live in. 

[vu84v2]

I realize I'm late to the party but football at small schools (especially non-scholarship football) = male enrollment.  No football means you become much more female.  At a Christian school during a time period where Christian masculinity and male leadership is sorely lacking in the world, I don't think Valpo can really achieve its mission without having a football team.  As a Lutheran university you need to churn out men looking to make an impact in the worlds they live in. 

This is complete nonsense. If Valpo has 80 football players, then they represent approximately 5% of the total undergraduate male population and maybe 2.5% of the total undergraduate population. If football makes sense financially, fine - keep it. But don't keep it if it is a major cost because (arrgghh!!!) some people think it is somehow the difference-making vehicle for male leadership.

And since you brought up the university mission and developing leaders, it is clear that Valpo's mission is to develop leaders regardless of gender. If you feel that men are inherently better leaders than women (or vice versa), you are not fit for any leadership position.

[valpo95]

OK, let's put some numbers here. The average cost of attendance (including tuition, room & board, fees, etc.) is $56,900. According to the same page,https://www.valpo.edu/student-financial-services/tuition-fees/ the average aid award is "in the range of $30,000." So, if there are 80 players paying a net $26,900, this results in $2.3M of revenue to VU per yer.

I'm fairly certain that the expenses related to football are much less than $2.3M, so it ends up being a net positive for the University.

Naturally, this is a back of the envelope calculation - the expenses related to food go down if there are 80 less students on meal plan, and perhaps a few less professors are needed. Yet the revenue implications seem pretty strong, especially if one considers that there are typically 30+ freshmen players, some of which depart from the roster yet remain enrolled. I'm sure the AD has considered these kinds of direct financial implications in much more detail.

Beyond this, there is quite a bit of goodwill that the football team may generate. How many future students (regardless of gender) visited campus with their parents for homecoming or a football game, and ended up attending later even as non-athletes? Is it helpful to have alumni events during the football team's visit to an opponent? I have no idea how to value these, yet they are important considerations as well.

[vu84v2]

valpo95 - Definitely some good points and your conclusion may well be correct. However, you also need to estimate the cost of replacing those 80 football players/students with 80 other students. Let's say that you had to give $5,000 more (per student per year) in scholarships to other students to replace those 80 football players. That would be an annual cost of $400,000. If the cost of the football program is greater than the expected cost to replace the football players with other students, then it is financially more sound to eliminate the football program.

Don't misread what I am saying. While I believe that the financial sustainability of the university is the greatest priority and question the value of the football program, I do recognize that there is some goodwill from the football program - though I would argue that it is not nearly as great as some may believe. I also think your revenue figures (total tuition from football players is low), which would strengthen your argument.

[vu72]

OK, let's put some numbers here. The average cost of attendance (including tuition, room & board, fees, etc.) is $56,900. According to the same page,https://www.valpo.edu/student-financial-services/tuition-fees/ the average aid award is "in the range of $30,000." So, if there are 80 players paying a net $26,900, this results in $2.3M of revenue to VU per yer.

I'm fairly certain that the expenses related to football are much less than $2.3M, so it ends up being a net positive for the University.

Add to that the 13,000 folks who attended home games.  If 75% were paying, at $10 a head, the is another 98,000 plus hot dog revenue  -- Also, we probably get between 100 and 200,000 for body bag games.  I posted somewhere else where we will get over 200,000 for playing NDSU in a couple of years.

[usc4valpo]

Interesting perspectives here. I will say this - if you keep football, then commit and not be satisfied that the team is ranked dead last (256 of 256) in the sagarin poll.
Also, cost for grounds and insurance are a huge expense.

[valpo95]

valpo95 - Definitely some good points and your conclusion may well be correct. However, you also need to estimate the cost of replacing those 80 football players/students with 80 other students. Let's say that you had to give $5,000 more (per student per year) in scholarships to other students to replace those 80 football players. That would be an annual cost of $400,000. If the cost of the football program is greater than the expected cost to replace the football players with other students, then it is financially more sound to eliminate the football program.

Yes, clearly there are more complicated considerations, and one would think that these sorts of analyses have been done. Yet VU is facing declining enrollments, and the pressures for private colleges and universities are difficult and likely to increase over the next decade.

The other thing to consider (which I didn't know during my days at VU) is that the "scholarship" / aid awards are not really funded awards in most cases. They are discounts off of the sticker price of attendance - they are available to every student that applies. This is not unique to Valpo: Many peer institutions follow a high-tuition/high-discount model. (One theory is that a high price is a signal of quality, and there are some students who do in fact pay the full price). In one notable example of a school going to a low-tuition/low-discount model, Concordia St. Paul cut their tuition from 29,700 in 2012 to 19,700 in 2013 and correspondingly cut the "scholarships" they offered by a similar amount.  http://www.csp.edu/wp-content/uploads/CSP-Fact-Sheet.pdf

I'd also add that there are funded scholarships (such as for basketball) that are true awards, which are not part of the discount model described above.

So, if eighty less football players are there, that doesn't automatically mean that eighty more students get that average aid award.

The other thing for those who are considering attending VU is to not get caught up in the sticker price, yet compare the net price after the award decision is offered.