Valpo at Loyola Game Thread, Sun., Feb. 9, 2020, 3:00p CT, ESPNU

[VUBBFan]

Watch the video of the final play posted by Paul on Twitter. Pause it at the 8-second mark and the hard shoulder contact against Javon is clear. Then watch Lottich's reaction in the background. He will raise his hands as if in the national sign of surrender, as he did elsewhere in the game and always does, and as usual that's about it. Contrast that with the more aggressive actions of Moser or some other conference coaches. No wonder the officials show Lottich no respect.

https://twitter.com/AlBillets/status/1226713500254457858

[Valpower]

This program is a joke. No other way to put it. The Lottich-apologists will be the only ones left on the boat when it's all said and done... alongside the eternal optimists ... and us long-time Valpo faithful. But, make no mistake about it - the boat has been taking on water for some time now with no real signs of stopping. We need a change. We've almost entirely turned over our roster. What's the only remaining variable? The coaching staff. A 4-year extension at this point would be celebrating what? Another below-average season? Blown opportunities? Declining attendance? More excuses? Give me a break. Many folks have said THIS IS THE YEAR!!! Well, we're now 5-7 in the conference.

In conference, we beat:

1. Evansville (x2). They are now 9-16
2. Drake. They are now 16-9
3. Indiana State. They are now 14-9
4. Illinois State. They are now 8-16

What good non-conference wins do we have .. apart from being 5-7 in the conference?

1. Toledo (back on 11/5). They're now 11-13.
2. SIUE? (back on 11/12). They're now 6-19
3. Grand Canyon (back on 11/22). They're now 10-13
4. Trinity Christian (back on 11/27). They're not even D-1...
5. Central Michigan (back on 12/8). They're 13-9 (So, I guess that's a good one...)
6. High Point (back on 12/18). They're 7-17

Who in the hell said "this is the year"?

[VUGrad1314]

Those no calls were as bad as wh's takes on McMillian's play.

In case you forgot, it's a 40 minute game. He was  a solid B to B- in the 2nd half (A offensively/C defensively and an F for fouling out so once again he was MIA when we were trying to close the gap.  And where would he have been had we forced OT? At the end of the bench done for the day. He was flat out F in the 1st half (his usual 2 fouls in the 1st 5 minutes followed by 15 minutes wasted on the bench while we struggled to stay in the game).  For God sakes, he's a frick'n junior with a ton of game experience, yet he cannot - that's CANNOT - figure out a way to play the game of basketball without getting himself in foul trouble. Most of the time he makes positive contributions offensively, but he may have the lowest basketball I've ever seen at this level. Ask yourself. Would you excuse anyone else for getting into constant foul trouble for huge parts of the game other than Mileek? Would it be ok if Javon did it, or Ryan, or even 1st year player/starter Donovan Clay? Anyone?  You're so blind to Mileek's deficiencies I'm starting to wonder if your his dad or mom - same first letter.

Change a few things and this argument could apply so so well to Lottich... It is amazing to me how you consistently defend one person while scapegoating the other...

[valpotx]

No one said, 'this is the year.'  We had a crap ton of turnover, and a lot of unknowns, outside of JFL.  If we steal 1 or 2 on the road and end up around .500 in conference, I call that a win.

[VUGrad1314]

The question that I become increasingly fearful of is this: with our inability to close the deal especially against the top of the conference are we going to be able to avoid massive roster turnover at the end of the year and actually get a chance to build our program? It is simultaneously difficult and easy to see the reasons for hope for the next year or two but so much depends on whether the players can see that hope or whether they will look for greener pastures and on Lottich improving on the sidelines and the players getting better in his system. There's still a lot of ifs for this program going forward and the answers aren't easy and depend on a lot of other factors.

[GoldenCrusader87]

If everyone stays, a team without John and Ryan - replaced by 2 solid freshmen - *should* be a better team

Clay is good. Javon is good. Krikke has the potential. Eron and Nick should be good role players. Would like to see Siggy get more set shots from 3 with Ryan graduated. Do not know enough about Freese yet. Mileek will be a 4 year starter if I'm not mistaken. So he should be a good dependable player. Sackey will be a junior and should have learned his role and know how to cut down on the turnovers. I like the chemistry when Zion, Javon, Clay, and Gordon or Nick are on the court with a solid big.

Idk - we've got the talent. Not sure if or when it'll all come together.

[oklahomamick]

I don't care.  Just get results.  Don't get results get replaced.  That's the world we live in, especially if you are making that kind of money.

Just have to define what results are.  My opinion results should not be any lower than what they have been the last 10 years. 

[SanityLost17]

We were not perfect yesterday, but outside of one 6 minute stretch I really liked what I saw.

I think we are going to win out at home and steal 1 on the road for a .500 finish. Hell, I am 50% confident we steal 2 on the road.  Robinson didn't score yesterday but he had 9 assists, I really like him as the starting PG instead of Sackey.   We shot the ball pretty well yesterday.  JFL is making a lot of bad decisions right now and forcing some shots trying to get back on track.  He won't stay cold forever.   I think Lottich screwed up playin EV in the 1st half when Krikke and McMillan only had 3 fouls between them.  Shoulda stuck with Krikke longer with 1 foul.  Close road games can't have sub par players out there for long stretches.   I think the refs did play a small role but that is normal on the road.  We had a few questionable calls go our way but just like any road game, most of the close calls or no calls went to the home team.  Can't really complain about it, that is just the way it is.  Our mental mistakes down the stretch played a much larger role in this loss.   

Loyola is a terrible matchup for us because Krut is just so much better than anybody we can throw at him.   By doubling and tripling him they did get a lot of open 3 point looks and although they are not a great 3 point shooting team, they had enough open ones they were going to hit a decent percentage.

[Just Sayin]

This program is a joke. No other way to put it. The Lottich-apologists will be the only ones left on the boat when it's all said and done... alongside the eternal optimists ... and us long-time Valpo faithful. But, make no mistake about it - the boat has been taking on water for some time now with no real signs of stopping. We need a change. We've almost entirely turned over our roster. What's the only remaining variable? The coaching staff. A 4-year extension at this point would be celebrating what? Another below-average season? Blown opportunities? Declining attendance? More excuses? Give me a break. Many folks have said THIS IS THE YEAR!!! Well, we're now 5-7 in the conference.

In conference, we beat:

1. Evansville (x2). They are now 9-16
2. Drake. They are now 16-9
3. Indiana State. They are now 14-9
4. Illinois State. They are now 8-16

What good non-conference wins do we have .. apart from being 5-7 in the conference?

1. Toledo (back on 11/5). They're now 11-13.
2. SIUE? (back on 11/12). They're now 6-19
3. Grand Canyon (back on 11/22). They're now 10-13
4. Trinity Christian (back on 11/27). They're not even D-1...
5. Central Michigan (back on 12/8). They're 13-9 (So, I guess that's a good one...)
6. High Point (back on 12/18). They're 7-17

Who in the hell said "this is the year"?

Probably the same person who said, "finally we are at full strength."

[chef]

I love everybody's passion on here, and will never bemoan fans for showing their displeasure when a team hasn't met their expectations. However, the one thing I disagree with is the complaints about Matt's sideline behavior. I understand he doesn't act like a ranting maniac like Musselman, and that's a good thing, but he does work the officials, and does it in an almost identical way that Bryce Drew always did. I don't think with :05 to go when Javon gets run over and there's a no call, that veteran officials like Terry Wymer and Roger Ayers are swallowing their whistle because they don't think Matt has been riding them enough, and I also don't think it's a factor in our record this year. I think now that Nick and Ryan are both finally healthy, and yesterday's game was a step forward. Here's hoping you'll all see a nice late season run.

[valpopal]

I love everybody's passion on here, and will never bemoan fans for showing their displeasure when a team hasn't met their expectations. However, the one thing I disagree with is the complaints about Matt's sideline behavior. I understand he doesn't act like a ranting maniac like Musselman, and that's a good thing, but he does work the officials, and does it in an almost identical way that Bryce Drew always did. I don't think with :05 to go when Javon gets run over and there's a no call, that veteran officials like Terry Wymer and Roger Ayers are swallowing their whistle because they don't think Matt has been riding them enough, and I also don't think it's a factor in our record this year. I think now that Nick and Ryan are both finally healthy, and yesterday's game was a step forward. Here's hoping you'll all see a nice late season run.

I respect your view, and I might agree if this were an isolated incident. However, Lottich has displayed a pattern in the past, including other games this season, of not forcefully supporting his players with officials after obvious fouls. Look at when Gordon got clocked in the head, was lying on the court, and no foul was called in a previous game. I watched: Lottich didn't even complain to the officials. This has to be disheartening to players. Bryce was much more forceful and at times deliberately baited the officials to get a technical. Here is a description of one situation I easily found: "Drew tossed his jacket into the bench, incessantly yelled into the referee's ear and once chased the official up the sideline while shouting and pumping his fist over a disputed no-call." Here is another: "Drew's jacket came off; his jacket went back on. The game got physical, and so did Drew's body language. 'They foul all the time!' he pleaded with a ref. When there was no foul after Valparaiso's point guard drew contact on a fairly out-of-control drive to the rim, Drew went nuts. 'This is terrible!' he shouted six times, before refs finally called him for a technical." I remember other games where Bryce purposely drew technical fouls. Lottich's repeated postgame comment that the officials are just doing their job is also weak. As for impacting the record. If the calls were made in this game, Valpo might have won, and that can be said about at least one other game. That would mean a top half standing in the conference and avoidance of a Thursday tournament game.

[valpo84]

Concur with much of Chef's poignant insight. Let me add a couple other points:

1. 0-7 vs Loyola; 0-7 vs Butler when we entered the respective conferences.
2. With about 3 minutes left, we had 3 empty possessions with a chance to cut the lead to 1 possession.  We eventually broke through that barrier and gave ourselves a shot.  That was a huge milestone for this team versus top competition.  We couldn't break that barrier versus UNI the other night.  The D in this game kept giving the O chances, and there was finally some conversion.
3. Congrats to Mileek on his 2d half.  The frustrating part for many of us with Mileek, and I said it to Mrs84 during the game, he looks like a basketball player.  6'8" 250 power forward who started his HS career as a guard.  He still has not had the switch go off to be a power forward.  His footwork and positioning on D still has not met what he should be doing.  Krikke on O and D is way ahead of him and looks more natural (BTW, he had to come out in 1st half and V come in because he needed a blow).  Mileek's release was much better in 2d half.  He reminds me of Tristan Thompson, who can be likewise frustrating on O and D.  Actually, Mileek might want to watch video of Darryl Thomas (in the game below) and his game around the basket (yes he would disappear for long periods too).
4. In that game, with every point critical, did we really want Matt to get a T and give up 2 points and the ball?  Bryce could afford the very rare T because our talent level was above the competition, and we could make those points up more easily.  And, maybe Chef can help, but how many total Ts did Bryce have in his Valpo coaching career?  How many in first few years? By the way, at one point early 2d half, I said to Mrs84 that Matt needed to break that whiteboard on the scorer's table (maybe seeing Knight at Assembly Hall Saturday reminded me of something like that -- LSU v IU 1987 phone slam, about 13 minutes into the tape on youtube). 
5. There seems to be a predisposition of some members of this board against Matt and to be fired since last year.  Every mistake is now magnified to prove whatever their points are.  I get it.  And now with Bryce allegedly available, there is a "simple solution" available. But, Bryce is not coming through that ARC entrance.  Why would he?  In fact, Chris Collins should be looking over his shoulder at NU for Bryce.  (BTW would love for the Nance kid to transfer to VU).  It also does nothing positive for Matt or this program's recruiting.  The talk of it is nonsense. And, quite frankly (and I love the Drews immensely), the program must move forward.  I do agree that there are lots of program graduates that could be potential hires going forward -- Nuness, Buggs, Diebler, Powell (seeking higher calling), Tonagel and Peters in the future -- and might be better coaches, but we still need to see what Matt does this year, and next.  Although any major transfers and I reserve the right to join those calling for his firing.
6.  Good question on Zion -- Chef any information?

[EddieCabot]

This program is a joke. No other way to put it. The Lottich-apologists will be the only ones left on the boat when it's all said and done... alongside the eternal optimists ... and us long-time Valpo faithful. But, make no mistake about it - the boat has been taking on water for some time now with no real signs of stopping. We need a change. We've almost entirely turned over our roster. What's the only remaining variable? The coaching staff. A 4-year extension at this point would be celebrating what? Another below-average season? Blown opportunities? Declining attendance? More excuses? Give me a break. Many folks have said THIS IS THE YEAR!!! Well, we're now 5-7 in the conference.

In conference, we beat:

1. Evansville (x2). They are now 9-16
2. Drake. They are now 16-9
3. Indiana State. They are now 14-9
4. Illinois State. They are now 8-16

What good non-conference wins do we have .. apart from being 5-7 in the conference?

1. Toledo (back on 11/5). They're now 11-13.
2. SIUE? (back on 11/12). They're now 6-19
3. Grand Canyon (back on 11/22). They're now 10-13
4. Trinity Christian (back on 11/27). They're not even D-1...
5. Central Michigan (back on 12/8). They're 13-9 (So, I guess that's a good one...)
6. High Point (back on 12/18). They're 7-17

Hey Golden. have another drink.

I guarantee he's not drinking what you are.  I know there are extremists on both sides, but the facts are that after 25 games, Valpo has 12 wins with 8 of those against 200+ KenPom teams or non-DIs and only 1 against a KenPom top 100 (Ind St at 98  ).

I'm not close to being aboard the "sky is falling" train, but it's hard to not to be a little disappointed after insiders like you, Oren, wh and the radio guy hyped the team so much. 

I'll have to go back and see if I "hyped" the team. I remember saying that I didn't know if this team would be any better than last year, but that they'd be a lot more fun to watch. I think that has held true.

I revisited your pre-season over/under picks and you were very balanced in your selections.  Please accept my apologies!

[NativeCheesehead]

Homer had such a good reputation he had to WORK to get a tech when he felt it was needed. I remember he was 10 feet out onto the court in Oakland years ago while the ball was in play and they wouldn't call it. He shrugged and stormed out to half court when the ball went out of bounds. Finally they called it.

[chef]

The berating of officials is overrated. Ben Jacobson is clearly the best coach in the league and far and away the most successful. He doesn't berate officials. Jay Wright doesn't berate officials, and neither does Tony Bennett. I'd take those two over any coach in the country on teams that exceed their talent level year in year out. Bryce picked up about 1 technical a year. I understand the point about standing up for your players, and I think Matt does that more than he's given credit for. As for the post game, nothing good comes from ripping the refs in the press conference. In fact, only bad things come from it. I think Zion's minutes were lost yesterday because Nick was playing so well in the backcourt.

[wh]

This program is a joke. No other way to put it. The Lottich-apologists will be the only ones left on the boat when it's all said and done... alongside the eternal optimists ... and us long-time Valpo faithful. But, make no mistake about it - the boat has been taking on water for some time now with no real signs of stopping. We need a change. We've almost entirely turned over our roster. What's the only remaining variable? The coaching staff. A 4-year extension at this point would be celebrating what? Another below-average season? Blown opportunities? Declining attendance? More excuses? Give me a break. Many folks have said THIS IS THE YEAR!!! Well, we're now 5-7 in the conference.

In conference, we beat:

1. Evansville (x2). They are now 9-16
2. Drake. They are now 16-9
3. Indiana State. They are now 14-9
4. Illinois State. They are now 8-16

What good non-conference wins do we have .. apart from being 5-7 in the conference?

1. Toledo (back on 11/5). They're now 11-13.
2. SIUE? (back on 11/12). They're now 6-19
3. Grand Canyon (back on 11/22). They're now 10-13
4. Trinity Christian (back on 11/27). They're not even D-1...
5. Central Michigan (back on 12/8). They're 13-9 (So, I guess that's a good one...)
6. High Point (back on 12/18). They're 7-17

Hey Golden. have another drink.

I guarantee he's not drinking what you are.  I know there are extremists on both sides, but the facts are that after 25 games, Valpo has 12 wins with 8 of those against 200+ KenPom teams or non-DIs and only 1 against a KenPom top 100 (Ind St at 98  ).

I'm not close to being aboard the "sky is falling" train, but it's hard to not to be a little disappointed after insiders like you, Oren, wh and the radio guy hyped the team so much. 

Yes, and I will continue to hype the team.  Sometime back I said we're running a 2-year marathon.  The finish line is the end of next season.  What I observed yesterday is a young team that took a top-3 MVC team to the wire at their place.  That would not have happened even a few games ago.  We're getting there.  For those who insist on bursting a blood vessel because they're tired of near misses, have at it.

Here's some food for thought that might bring the temperature in the room down a little.  Loyola's best conference record in its first 4 years in the MVC was 8-10.  Their worst was 4-14.  They finished 10th, 6th, 8th and 5th, before a 15-3 1st place finish in their 5th year. This was all under the great Porter Moser.  I wonder if Loyola fans were calling for his head every time they lost a game in those first 4 years?  Were they constantly slamming his coaching ability? Were they claiming he was out coached every time they lost a game? Were they saying he was yelling at the refs too much and alienating them - that he needed to tone it down? Was his offense stagnant and lacked creativity? Were his players playing out of position and his substitution patterns sucked? How many times had he "lost the team" in those days? Were they asking why he still couldn't win after the university spent millions of dollars on Gentile Center renovations?       

[valpopal]

The berating of officials is overrated. Ben Jacobson is clearly the best coach in the league and far and away the most successful. He doesn't berate officials. Jay Wright doesn't berate officials, and neither does Tony Bennett. I'd take those two over any coach in the country on teams that exceed their talent level year in year out. Bryce picked up about 1 technical a year. I understand the point about standing up for your players, and I think Matt does that more than he's given credit for. As for the post game, nothing good comes from ripping the refs in the press conference. In fact, only bad things come from it. I think Zion's minutes were lost yesterday because Nick was playing so well in the backcourt.

I don't think anyone has asked for "berating" of officials, nor is anyone asking for many technical fouls. That is introducing red herrings into the discussion. Instead, it would be refreshing to see more forceful challenging of bad calls or non-calls and a selective technical at least once or twice during a season, as you acknowledge Bryce did. Something more than simply raising one's hands in exasperation. Likewise, nobody is requesting that Lottich "rip" into refs in the postgame. However, when Javon acknowledged there was contact in the postgame conference, Matt could have simply backed his player by saying that's the way he saw it as well, rather than merely repeating his excuse that the refs are just doing their job. 

[valpo84]

wh--yes, they were asking if Porter should be fired prior to the improvements in years 4 and 5 in the MVC.  History is a terrible thing to waste.

Porter was fired from Illinois State after 4 miserable years and a cumulative record of 51-67 and 2 10th place finishes in the MVC.

He was 22-39 his first 2 years, which were in the HL with a 10th and 7th place finish before the move.

He was 57-66 in the first 4 years of Loyola in the MVC and 89-105 in his first 6 years at Loyola.  His cumulative MVC record even with 3 really good years is 67-82.

[oklahomamick]

WH - Loyola's best conference record in its first 4 years in the MVC was 8-10.  Their worst was 4-14.  They finished 10th, 6th, 8th and 5th, before a 15-3 1st place finish in their 5th year. This was all under the great Porter Moser.


Loyola was coming over from the HL with those same results.

Valpo coming over from the HL with 1st place, 1st place, 1st place.  I think there a couple more 1st places....

[EddieCabot]

I'm not close to being aboard the "sky is falling" train, but it's hard to not to be a little disappointed after insiders like you, Oren, wh and the radio guy hyped the team so much. 

Yes, and I will continue to hype the team.  Sometime back I said we're running a 2-year marathon.  The finish line is the end of next season.  What I observed yesterday is a young team that took a top-3 MVC team to the wire at their place.  That would not have happened even a few games ago.  We're getting there.  For those who insist on bursting a blood vessel because they're tired of near misses, have at it.

Here's some food for thought that might bring the temperature in the room down a little.  Loyola's best conference record in its first 4 years in the MVC was 8-10.  Their worst was 4-14.  They finished 10th, 6th, 8th and 5th, before a 15-3 1st place finish in their 5th year. This was all under the great Porter Moser.  I wonder if Loyola fans were calling for his head every time they lost a game in those first 4 years?  Were they constantly slamming his coaching ability? Were they claiming he was out coached every time they lost a game? Were they saying he was yelling at the refs too much and alienating them - that he needed to tone it down? Was his offense stagnant and lacked creativity? Were his players playing out of position and his substitution patterns sucked? How many times had he "lost the team" in those days? Were they asking why he still couldn't win after the university spent millions of dollars on Gentile Center renovations?     

I'm AOK with that.  Like I said, there's reason for concern, but no need to jump off the ledge.  My only point of contention might be that the "huge step up in conference" excuse might be a bit overstated.  IMO, Valpo had several teams in the HL (2013,2016) that would have been at the top of this year's MVC.  I realize Valpo won't dominate the MVC like it did the MidCon or Horizon, but I'd like to see them back to being "as good" as those teams were in metrics like KenPom.

[FWalum]

WH - Loyola's best conference record in its first 4 years in the MVC was 8-10.  Their worst was 4-14.  They finished 10th, 6th, 8th and 5th, before a 15-3 1st place finish in their 5th year. This was all under the great Porter Moser.


Loyola was coming over from the HL with those same results.

Valpo coming over from the HL with 1st place, 1st place, 1st place.  I think there a couple more 1st places....

Ben Jacobson, the man many seem to think is the best coach in the MVC, is also going on a 4 year cycle. "16-17" 14-16, "17-18" 16-16, "18-19" 16-18 and was coaching with what should be MVC caliber players and knowing the conference teams like the back of his hand. In our first two years in the conference NIU at 16-20 was 3 games better than VU at 13-23 with advantages we didn't have. Ben is having a great year but I guess he was human the 3 previous.