Valpo @ Indiana State 2/29 1:00PM ESPN3 WVUR 95.1

VUGrad1314 · February 29, 2020, 04:36:20 PM

Yeah... This is over... Get ready for Evansville on Thursday... Kudos to the Bears they earned it today. They made the most of their opportunity we did not. I'm not even going to mention the JFL injury because to be honest I don't know if he would have been able to lead us to victory today even healthy. Do you think he could have made up 13 points?

NativeCheesehead · February 29, 2020, 04:46:07 PM

This isn't all on Lottich, the conference record improved, and the JFL illness hurt us, but man. It's hard to be anything other than really bummed right now.

Thursday night, again. Ugh.

VUGrad1314 · February 29, 2020, 04:56:22 PM

What I'm most worried about is next season. While the reasons for optimism are certainly there and actually quite obvious a third straight Thursday finish is not likely to get the fans to want to come out and watch the team. Avoiding Thursday would have been an obvious sign of progress that everyone could have objectively pointed to but now that we don't have that it's hard to convince someone who wouldn't otherwise go to games that going to games is a worthwhile idea. I've said it since we got into the MVC there would be initial excitement but it wouldn't last long if we don't prove it on the court and although the progress has been steady sure and clear to everyone we haven't proven it on the court to a degree that motivates people to come out. We will probably struggle in the attendance department this year too especially early in the season unless and until we start winning and pull off some wins that raise some eyebrows and give everyone an indication that we can contend in the MVC. The sooner we do that next year the better but that's what it's going to take. It takes wins to get fans. Not close losses. Not moral victories. Not fighting hard. Not good efforts that don't end successfully. Wins. We've done a good job at home overall but we need to do better against the top of the conference we need to stop digging holes and having to claw back we need to do better on the road we need to be more consistent. WE NEED TO WIN. And until we do that don't blame the fans or the community at large for being reluctant to come out.

valpopal · February 29, 2020, 05:40:22 PM

Very disappointing. There was a single prime measurement by which to gauge this year's regular conference season: avoid the PIG! I get there may be signs of hope in the future assuming all players are back, with the leadership of JFL, the development of Clay and Krikke, and the possible contributions by Gordon, Robinson, and maybe Sackey or Morgan going forward. And I would like to think McMillen will break out next year the way someone like Vashil Fernandez eventually did. Perhaps there is a gem among the incoming freshmen as well. However, next year is always next year, and there have been too many "next year" sentiments in recent end of season summaries. Playing in the tournament on Thursday again this year seems a sure sign of further frustration if not failure. Instead, I now feel like there simply ought to be a "You Had One Job!" meme posted here.

VUGrad1314 · February 29, 2020, 05:53:56 PM

To be fair Harre had one job in 1998: promote and grow the basketball team while it had the nation's attention. We could have been like Gonzaga BEFORE GONZAGA. We didn't do it and although we have continued to succeed to the degree that we are now in a great conference we have not had that kind of 1998 success again and we have paid for our lack of commitment to athletics with declining enrollment and waning interest now that we've hit a bit of a rough patch. Gonzaga was going to close when they bet on basketball. Now they're thriving. Butler I think was having financial problems in the mid 90s when they bet on basketball. They sure aren't now. Loyola has surged since committing to basketball. Similar success stories for Xavier Creighton and Wichita State (though their situations weren't nearly as dire as Gonzaga's was or ours appears to be). What's missing? INSTITUTIONAL COMMITMENT. We were given a GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY and we chose not to take advantage because we're too good for sportsball. And now here we sit hoping for another opportunity and hoping that the old guard board members have learned their lesson and would actually commit to basketball as a growth strategy (fat chance). Before anyone comes at me with the "What makes you think it'll work and what about all the other things we need to do around campus?" I must have missed the part where our current strategy was working so well and we were in such great shape financially. The new buildings (while necessary) have NOT positively impacted enrollment. What do we have to lose by trying the basketball first strategy? This CAN WORK and HAS WORKED for MANY schools. It's tried and true. Show me cases where a team committed to basketball to the level of Gonzaga Butler Xavier and Wichita State or even Loyola after the MVC invite and it didn't work. I think you'd be hard pressed to find that. It is a way to bring money attention and applications in to the school. We just need another catalyzing run and if we get it I hope we are smart enough to take full advantage in a way we simply didn't back in 98.

GoldenCrusader87 · February 29, 2020, 06:20:44 PM

Optimistically-speaking:

We play Evansville for the PIG, right? If so, that gives us an opportunity to get our feet under us ... get our 2nd win in Arch Madness play, and garner some confidence going into Friday's match-up. I'm hoping JFL stayed back to help him get healthy and that he'll be ready-to-go next weekend. Though, I don't know a lot about mono.

Either way, Evansville proved 16 times that they could not win a conference game. They've got some players but never made it all work. So, we've gotta feel good about that. Maybe even better than if we had been a (6) seed even if it means we have to partake in the PIG.

I know no MVC team has won since the start of this format being the 7-10 seed but there's still something good about being the team who stays in a groove instead of the one that ends up resting, playing a team that's just come off a win in the PIG, and losing a game they shouldn't have lost. That happened to us in the Horizon a few times.

So, all is not lost.

valpopal · February 29, 2020, 06:52:17 PM

Quote from: GoldenCrusader87 on February 29, 2020, 06:20:44 PM
Optimistically-speaking:

We play Evansville for the PIG, right? If so, that gives us an opportunity to get our feet under us ... get our 2nd win in Arch Madness play, and garner some confidence going into Friday's match-up. I'm hoping JFL stayed back to help him get healthy and that he'll be ready-to-go next weekend. Though, I don't know a lot about mono.

Either way, Evansville proved 16 times that they could not win a conference game. They've got some players but never made it all work. So, we've gotta feel good about that. Maybe even better than if we had been a (6) seed even if it means we have to partake in the PIG.

I know no MVC team has won since the start of this format being the 7-10 seed but there's still something good about being the team who stays in a groove instead of the one that ends up resting, playing a team that's just come off a win in the PIG, and losing a game they shouldn't have lost. That happened to us in the Horizon a few times.

So, all is not lost.

valpotx · February 29, 2020, 07:32:44 PM

Still a dangerous team on any given night, though Mileek needs to stop dribbling/driving, as it never ends well.

Golden, I don't regret my COY comment one bit. With the roster turnover, no one was picking us to do anything this season, and we have surpassed Loyola's trajectory from when they first joined the MVC. As I just said on the other thread, the COY award is not always awarded to the top 2 teams in the conference, but rather the coach that had the most impact. If we would have won at ISUb to finish 10-8, he would have received votes.

oklahomamick · February 29, 2020, 07:43:33 PM

we have surpassed Loyola's trajectory from when they first joined the MVC.

Why are we using that as the bar to compare ourselves? I'll remind you when Loyola arrived to the MVC they were coming off a decade of horrible HL results. Valpo was coming into the MVC off of 5 of 6 HL championships and a NIT championship runner up.

We should be quicker to success in the mvc than Loyola.

oklahomamick · February 29, 2020, 07:44:57 PM

Remember we got invited based on our merits on the floor not because we are in Chicago and have nice facilities.

NativeCheesehead · February 29, 2020, 09:11:14 PM

Stop comparing us to LU.

VUGrad1314 · March 01, 2020, 12:03:31 AM

Have any of you heard of preferring illusion to despair? It means that it's better to believe a comfortable lie than to confront a painful reality. Comfortable lie: It doesn't matter that Loyola came from being a bottom feeder in the HL to finally contending in the MVC in Year 5 and Valpo was a top flight HL team that is struggling in the MVC It's important that we got to .500 first. Reality: We should have competed way faster and the fact that we are a Thursday team for the third consecutive year after competing so well in the same league Loyola struggled in is a huge red flag for the state of the program. I feel like if I'm forced to confront the increasingly apparent reality that this program is not and never will be anything without the Drews I'll become despondent and have no reason to ever hope for anything as a fan. I need that hope that we're building something and we're going to be fine and that we are still a legitimate mid major power on the national stage; and if it's not there and there truly is no hope that things will ever get better than what's the point?

valpotx · March 01, 2020, 05:06:47 AM

Not with the roster turnover we've had. You all need to be more realistic. Finishing at 9-9 with what we lost and our unknowns, is an amazing accomplishment.

valpolaw · March 01, 2020, 08:40:54 AM

Im sorry but I just can't call a 9-9 finish and not avoiding the play in game an amazing accomplishment.

oklahomamick · March 01, 2020, 10:15:24 AM

Tex missing the point again

NativeCheesehead · March 01, 2020, 10:28:19 AM

So what's everyone's mood if we lose to EVille? No Robinson, likely no JFL. Bigger arena with unfamiliar shooting background. Still shouldn't happen but not completely out of the realm of possibility.

FieldGoodie05 · March 01, 2020, 10:48:29 AM

Quote from: valpotx on March 01, 2020, 05:06:47 AM
Not with the roster turnover we've had. You all need to be more realistic. Finishing at 9-9 with what we lost and our unknowns, is an amazing accomplishment.

I'm 50-50 on fire/extending Lottich. I think Okie-boys point is that Lottich signed the players who fled last off season. Thereby he must take ownership of the whole picture because his instincts brought them to Valpo and allowed the mass exodus.

I get both sides of the argument personally. I just don't see why shooting for the moon with a fire-then-hire makes sense at this point. I highly question whether a bible thumping coach (Tonnagel) relates to MVC level recruits...he is unflinching and quite the hardliner from what I hear. By all appearances Lottich does not lean away from religion but I also think he's more grounded than most that carry the religious badge.

Either way...Oklahomamick....play nice buddy!!!

oklahomamick · March 01, 2020, 11:19:45 AM

Well said fieldgoodie.

I also thought Vugrad1314's preferring illusion to despair was good.

The max exodus was all Lottich except for smits. But hopefully coach pushed them out because they were cancers. By them not being here we are better.

If they stayed I think we are 9th not 7th. Tough to replace evansville at 10th.....

I think not extending Lottich 2 years we will be taking a step back. Need stability and the team likes to play for him. However he just doesn't have a high ceiling. Unless you go out and get a proven coach and are willing to spend Some money, just stay at status quo

valpotx · March 01, 2020, 01:36:48 PM

Quote from: oklahomamick on March 01, 2020, 10:15:24 AM
Tex missing the point again

I understand if you might still be butt hurt about my OK comments

, but don't let that blind you from a season where we should have been at a level similar to Evansville and Illinois State. Almost the entire key roster turned over! Your expectation on our immediate potential to compete for championships in the MVC is not realistic. We had 2 separate NBA players for 8 consecutive seasons. You were spoiled by that success. We were not competing for championships after we transitioned to the HL for 3 seasons, and are well ahead of schedule moving into and competing in the more difficult MVC. Belmont and Murray State would have performed similar or worse than we have in our 3 seasons, as they get to beat down a

OVC.

oklahomamick · March 01, 2020, 01:47:09 PM

"We were not competing for championships after we transitioned to the HL for 3 seasons"

Yes, nor were we the last 3 years of the Mid-Con.....

"Almost the entire key roster turned over!"

Yes, for the better. Also, the roster that Lottich brought in. So, if they left then that is his fault.....

"we should have been at a level similar to Evansville and Illinois State"

We aren't far from it....7 instead of 10 or 9.

oklahomamick · March 01, 2020, 01:54:41 PM

We had 2 separate NBA players for 8 consecutive seasons. You were spoiled by that success.

Yes, we were spoiled. Must have been a good recruiter at the helm. Probably some good assistants that stayed for several years too. Little staff turnover and little roster turnover.

If I call Green Bay and Oakland both had 2 nba guys get drafted as well.

No hard feelings on the OK comments. Keep giving me layups though. Comparing our MVC success to Loyola's was a good one too.

NativeCheesehead · March 01, 2020, 02:01:32 PM

And for all of us celebrating the transfers last season, Bakari and Smits (if healthy) will be playing in the tourney this year, and Jay will soon be getting a paycheck. And here we are again on Thursday night.

EddieCabot · March 01, 2020, 03:25:51 PM

Quote from: NativeCheesehead on March 01, 2020, 02:01:32 PM
And for all of us celebrating the transfers last season, Bakari and Smits (if healthy) will be playing in the tourney this year, and Jay will soon be getting a paycheck. And here we are again on Thursday night.

Bakari isn't putting up big numbers, but he's playing almost 20 mpg for an Iowa team that's currently a 5 seed per bracketmatrix.com. He either wasn't healthy last year or just needed a change of scenery.

valpotx · March 01, 2020, 03:31:35 PM

We ended up in 6th place, not 7th place. We just have the 7 seed in the tournament, due to a random NET tiebreaker, but history will have us listed as tied for 6th, just 1 loss from a 4th place finish. I understand that living in TX's shadow on a daily basis can make you bitter, but try to go outside and smell the roses a bit, bud

. Maybe this anger stems from 3 MVPs leaving your NBA team for greener pastures, and not being able to win the big one while you had them all in 2011, due to getting spanked by a big god-like German and several key role players?

It will get better, I promise...one day.

Loyola is a very valid comparison, as we just lost the greatest player in the history of our program, so it wasn't the same team joining the MVC. Our funding was at the top of the HL, and was/is near the bottom of the MVC. That is also a factor. There's your layup, but just like the 2011 conference finals, I think OK will come up short.

oklahomamick · March 01, 2020, 04:11:06 PM

Not even a fan of ok thunder but cool. Not even a fan of the nba.

Only thing we agree on is how bad oklahoma is, and I'm talking about the state not university's football team or the nba team.

Don't see how it relates to any of this.

Maybe you can compare it to when you were a big D1 athlete. I always enjoyed those post. Miss them dearly. Maybe 10k a year scholarship, if that? Doesn't matter, not relevant.

Let's keep to the facts and the argument at topic.

Coming into the valley we had 8 years of success and returning several from a HL league title.

Loyola came into the valley with 8 years of bottom feeding. Also at that time loyola's budget isn't what it is now.

Of course it's expected valpo should have quicker success.

What's impressive is our women's program. They came into the valley with similar 8 year of bottom feeding just Loyola. However they are going a two bid league. The girls have over achieved.

My answers to your comments are in bold above.