Crusaders Retired

[usc4valpo]

I wonder if the student body really cares, or if the the votes get stacked by Greeks. Who knows...

[bbtds]

I've heard so many times that the name change is less damaging than the lack of transparency and "sham survey".  I'm sorry.   I don't buy that.  The issue here is that a segment of alumni are upset by the name change.  Simple as that.  The cries of a fraudulent process is a smoke screen and justification for the animosity. 

I hate most of all that the new norm is that we claim fraud and lies and deep state tactics when we get an outcome we don't like.  That's disheartening.   

I am in favor of cutting association with a name tied to murder in the name of religion.  I am in favor of dissociating with a name used prominently by the Ku Klux Klan. 

The justifications are there for why the name change would be appropriate.  Using the sham survey and process narrative is gaslighting and takes away from the real concerns about the name, the real social change that is occurring particularly in most recent years and among younger generations.  Feel free to defend the messaging of the Crusades and Crusader on its merits.  Don't bog us down with the manufactured indignity of sham survey and other conspiracy claims. 

And in the end Crusaders was just not that good of a nickname/mascot. I've always thought that.

[valpotx]

I wonder if the student body really cares, or if the the votes get stacked by Greeks. Who knows...

Completely my point.  I don't remember any email announcements of whenever this occurred when I was on campus, but assume that items were only posted in the Union back then.  I would hope that it is more well-publicized nowadays.

[Pgmado]

I wonder if the student body really cares, or if the the votes get stacked by Greeks. Who knows...

Completely my point.  I don't remember any email announcements of whenever this occurred when I was on campus, but assume that items were only posted in the Union back then.  I would hope that it is more well-publicized nowadays.

I know The Torch would do a huge spread every year about the students that were running for SBP and SBVP. They would list when the debate was and when you could vote. Here is a link to one from the 2000-01 school year. Particulary of note to you ValpoTX is I wrote a VU Baseball story in that issue. I used the Crusader nickname in the headline, in the lede of my story and in the pull quote!

https://collections.valpo.edu/digital/collection/torch/id/26615/rec/2738

[valpotx]

Haha, well there you go.  I apparently just didn't pay attention to anything Student Senate was doing, while on campus.  Do you remember anything about voter turnout?

Also, Mark Pedersen was an absolute stud of a baseball player.  Very cool to read your article this many years later, and that looks like Justin Lata in the picture.  Looks closer to 6'3" versus the 6'7" Mason Linderbaum, or 6'10" Kyle Cummings.  That 2000-2001 baseball team was pretty solid, ending the season at 28-29.  Large improvement from the 14-49 or whatever it was, during my RS year of 1999-2000.  Marc Boggio (another stud player) actually lives in Dallas now, and has picked up baseball again in the last year, in tandem with his music career.  I play in a league that is in-between Dallas and Fort Worth, but I might end up playing a few games with his more Dallas-based team. 

When writing the header, lede, and pull quote, did you feel offended?  Sorry, I had to ask

[Pgmado]

https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/mascot-debate-at-valparaiso-has-proponents-and-opponents-just-as-it-did-in-the-1940s/article_cbb15837-c915-557e-9668-5194e3f60bd2.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

[vuny98]

cmack, if you have an issue with the name crusaders being tied to KKK then Valpo should move all crosses from campus immediately? See what we are getting at.

No, not at all. This is the most bizarre take I've heard yet.  Just wow.  🤦🏼‍♂️

As you may or may not know, a few years ago, internet trolls thought it would be funny to trick everyone into thinking the OK hand symbol means "White Power" and is a symbol white supremacists use to signal to each other. It was 100% a joke and not true. But here we are today, with the OK hand symbol designated as a hate symbol, people get shamed and fired for using it, etc. So to the point, the KKK uses the cross in all of the symbols, so who's to say we shouldn't treat the cross as a symbol of hate? When you let others define what words/symbols mean, then you have no control.

As a more outlandish example, I have heard someone say that the Tigers as LSU's mascot was racist because a mostly white southern school was appropriating an animal of an oppressed Asian culture.

Eventually the outlandish examples (OK hand symbol/LSU Tigers/The Cross being a symbol of hate) can become mainstream if not kept in check and have appropriate pushback. The Crusader is certainly less outlandish of an argument, but the reasoning of a hate group using the word as an excuse is a slippery slope that opens a lot of potential future arguments and also the ability for Trolls/bad actors to fake the connection to hate groups for personal gain/pleasure.

[78crusader]

I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to provide me with any hard evidence that the Crusader name has been adopted by, or linked to, hate groups.  Another member of the board provided me with a link from an anti-terrorist group, but I imagined it would be easy for proponents of the name change to provide some evidence other than an obscure link from an anti-terrorist group that few people have ever heard of.  I would like to see actual evidence that groups in this country have used the Crusader name to further a "hate" agenda.

This is one of the main reasons given for the name change.  It's easy to say the Crusader name has been hijacked by hate groups.  It is harder come up with proof such is the case. 

Paul

[may know]

That article was outstanding. Presented historical background and quoted conflicting viewpoints by important people who don't have a prominent voice. Exactly what journalism should be.

[valpopal]

I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to provide me with any hard evidence that the Crusader name has been adopted by, or linked to, hate groups.  Another member of the board provided me with a link from an anti-terrorist group, but I imagined it would be easy for proponents of the name change to provide some evidence other than an obscure link from an anti-terrorist group that few people have ever heard of. 

Let's be honest, the argument that the Crusader is tied to hate groups was exaggerated and promoted by the anti-Crusader lobbyists because the same old argument about its historical religious connotations had never gotten anywhere with the university's overall community and would likely fail to be persuasive again this time. Instead, the strategy was a political spin appealing to a woke mentality and capitalizing on recent acts of cancel culture, allowing members to participate in their own form of virtue signaling. That is why arguments that this is nothing new—because objections to the Crusader had been raised by some in the past couple of decades—and not a product of woke mentality don't hold up. This also explains why the announcement video focused on the spin that this was a "hate groups" issue rather than the old argument about a historical religious aspect of the Crusader, which was relegated to the background. As one who is interested in process, I say this with admiration for design of the political strategy by the anti-Crusader activists.

[valpopal]

That article was outstanding. Presented historical background and quoted conflicting viewpoints by important people who don't have a prominent voice. Exactly what journalism should be.

Agreed. Kudos to Paul.

[78crusader]

Maybe the article was outstanding.  But an article isn't proof.  It cites one - and only one - use of the Crusader name for malicious reasons in the United States - a group of 3 wackos in Kansas who in 2016 threatened Muslims and who called themselves "the Crusaders."

That's it. 

If that one example - one incident in a country of 330 million people, spanning decades - was so important, why didn't the University cite that as a reason for getting rid of the Crusader?  Instead, we heard the vague charge that the name is linked to, and used by, hate groups (plural). If the University had any proof the Crusader name was linked to hate groups, it was their responsibility to provide that information as justification for the change.  That was not done.   

This whole deal is bogus.

Paul

[a3uge]

The "adopted by hate groups" is just a way for the university to save face and absolve themselves of blame for using a mascot for 70 years they themselves have deemed unacceptable. I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't disingenuous. The name didn't suddenly become problematic; this debate has been going on for years.

[humbleopinion]

I thought that I would paste this link (which I found after a very short Google search) again.  I know that it requires reading, but those of you who want to associate yourselves with a university should not be afraid of scholarly papers:

http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/641/pdf

[wh]

Alinsky's "Rules For Radicals" - Rule #13: "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." So simple, so effective. Valpo's board and administration have allowed a destructive force of pseudo science teachers, faculty and staff feminists, and a radical student pawn to establish a false narrative and do serious damage to Valparaiso University's image and reputation. The university must be called out and shamed for its indefensible insensitivity toward another major religion and its adherents, and even worse, for its 80-year indirect connection to the KKK and other unnamed hate groups. The story is communicated to lapdogs in the media and turned into a national story. The university goes into full blown damage control. It accepts the criticism at face value, problem solves a solution, then engages its stakeholders to create the illusion that they played a part in the fix. The group of perpetually aggrieved faculty and staff members are thrilled with all the attention and marvel as it momentarily fills the void in their lives. Once the high wears off, it's back to business - removing "offensive" Christian symbols like the Cross from public display, ending the playing of the National Anthem prior to athletic events - the possibilities are endless. So much to do; so little time.

[M]

The anthem before all athletic events has made the anthem less meaningful.

[valpo95]

I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to provide me with any hard evidence that the Crusader name has been adopted by, or linked to, hate groups.  Another member of the board provided me with a link from an anti-terrorist group, but I imagined it would be easy for proponents of the name change to provide some evidence other than an obscure link from an anti-terrorist group that few people have ever heard of.  I would like to see actual evidence that groups in this country have used the Crusader name to further a "hate" agenda.

This is one of the main reasons given for the name change.  It's easy to say the Crusader name has been hijacked by hate groups.  It is harder come up with proof such is the case. 

Paul

This example took me all of about 30 seconds to find:

https://twitter.com/astroehlein/status/677127361222021121

(BTW, the tweet comes from the European Media Director, Human Rights Watch).

You could also look at an article like this:

https://www.history.com/news/how-hate-groups-are-hijacking-medieval-symbols-while-ignoring-the-facts-behind-them

Clearly this does not represent what the Valparaiso Crusader is all about, yet these are some examples showing that crusader-related imagery being used by individuals in ways that are offensive.

[crusadermoe]

Meanwhile, back in reality land and actual leadership of organizations:  The only question we should ask in light of our 2020 Moody's bond rating downgrade is this, "Does the mascot change increase enrollment and improve our finances?"  If not, then the mascot change is just a shiny object, perhaps intentionally designed to distract.

On January 21, 2020 Moody's downgraded our bond rating.  Moody's cited three factors that could lead to a (further) downgrade. The second one is "Inability to produce near balanced operating performance in fiscal 2021."

Are we clear?

[wh]

Meanwhile, back in reality land and actual leadership of organizations:  The only question we should ask in light of our 2020 Moody's bond rating downgrade is this, "Does the mascot change increase enrollment and improve our finances?"  If not, then the mascot change is just a shiny object, perhaps intentionally designed to distract.

On January 21, 2020 Moody's downgraded our bond rating.  Moody's cited three factors that could lead to a (further) downgrade. The second one is "Inability to produce near balanced operating performance in fiscal 2021."

Are we clear?

Crystal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmKOVdAGtzM

[Pgmado]

Does that mean Valparaiso is in danger?

Grave danger?

Is there another kind?

[vu72]

To be clear, this is all about athletics and not about the university in general.  Do we talk about "The Crusader Chorale" or "the Crusader Business College"  No. It only refers to the mascot for athletic teams. People outside of our little universe don't think of Valpo as Crusaders, they think of Valpo as..."Valpo"

Other universities have changed their mascots and, I'm sure, in doing so, created all sorts of controversies. Think about Belmont changing from the Rebels to the Bruins (in Tennessee). Or Butler changing from "The Christians" to the Bulldogs, or Dartmouth changing from "the Indians" to the Big Green or Miami changing from "The Redskins" to the Redhawks. Think everybody was happy?  Did they change to broaden their appeal or possibly to not offend future students? Most certainly.

Its just a mascot.

[mp91]

Mp91 - a mascot name change will have minimal effect on Valpo's business status. Since you brought the business perspective up, why doesn't the Valpo focus on getting the balance sheets sorted out and provide a basketball program and facility comparable to the MVC?

Too much energy spent on trivial matters. Valpo has bigger issues than this.

Not really sure how you can say changing a name that is linked to hate groups is a "trivial matter." It's actually extremely important to the University's public perception and growth opportunities.

Everyone on here seems to be furious because the name was changed, simply because it was changed. Again, the argument that things should stay the same just because that's how they have always been isn't convincing. Perceptions of events and people change over time. You have to be willing to change along with it. Otherwise, we would still be saying the earth is flat.

Also, curious, what are everyone's thoughts on changing the name during World War II? Do you think we should have kept the German soldier symbology then? And, explain your thinking. To me, this change has a lot of parallels to the name change back then.

[VUGrad1314]

Whatever gets the university back on stable footing. My biggest concern is the cost of the rebranding secondarily upsetting players (which may not be a valid concern) and thirdly the message this sends about commitment to athletics when we have so many things to fix right now and limited money to fix them. We need another run to get the attention and spotlight back on Valpo athletics and we need to actually capitalize on this one in a way we didn't in 1998. I just hope our university will seize it if it comes by. That or we need a bailout from a bunch of other MVC teams doing well in the tournament so that we have a nice cushion of income to at least make incremental improvements.

[mj]

To be clear, this is all about athletics and not about the university in general.

Except that the process has demonstrated, once again, the questionable leadership of VU. The lack of candor and transparency around the decision is a bigger issue than the actual name change. Those are the things that actually cause harm to the long term wellbeing of the school.

As I said before, VU has attempted to avoid hard decisions for years now. Whether it was letting the law school run itself into the ground or proposing to cut profitable programs because they wouldn't need to cut tenured faculty.

[mp91]

To be clear, this is all about athletics and not about the university in general.

Except that the process has demonstrated, once again, the questionable leadership of VU. The lack of candor and transparency around the decision is a bigger issue than the actual name change. Those are the things that actually cause harm to the long term wellbeing of the school.

As I said before, VU has attempted to avoid hard decisions for years now. Whether it was letting the law school run itself into the ground or proposing to cut profitable programs because they wouldn't need to cut tenured faculty.

Well, everyone that made this decision is going to be gone in a couple weeks, as the new administration takes over. So, you won't have to worry about the same leadership. But, as we all know, the University did make several missteps over the last couple of decades. One of them was not prioritizing diversity in its student body. This change was likely meant with this in mind.

And, it also must be noted that the University does not have to get 100% approval from alumni. Just because you didn't get asked your opinion doesn't mean there was a lack of candor and transparency.

Moreover, if you choose not to support the University because they changed their mascot, then you probably were not that loyal anyway. Someone who was really loyal to the University would be in favor of being more welcoming to more students. That's what a new mascot would do.