Crusaders Retired

[mj]

Just because you didn't get asked your opinion doesn't mean there was a lack of candor and transparency.

My dude, you've missed the entire point. VU started removing the Crusader in 2018 but couldn't bring itself to be upfront about it. They created a committee but wouldn't say who was involved. They  sent around a push poll but never released the results. They blew an opportunity to bring the alumni together and instead created division. These are not the signs of a healthy institution.

One of them was not prioritizing diversity in its student body. This change was likely meant with this in mind.

Would have been nice to have an open and honest discussion so we would know why the mascot was changed instead of having to speculate.

Someone who was really loyal to the University would be in favor of being more welcoming to more students. That's what a new mascot would do.

I guess questioning the decision making process makes me "disloyal." Come on, man. Also, I hate to break it to you but I really think you're overestimating the impact of changing the mascot.

[crusadermoe]

Gosh, you are so right, MP91.

You don't have to ask alumni our opinions. Adverse opinions are always a nuisance anyway.  Perhaps you should ban alumni from university twitter accounts.   

But asking customers for their thoughts is typically a good idea in the real world of business. Only in academia do the inmates (faculty and students) run the assylum. 

[mp91]

Gosh, you are so right, MP91.

You don't have to ask alumni our opinions. Adverse opinions are always a nuisance anyway.  Perhaps you should ban alumni from university twitter accounts.   

But asking customers for their thoughts is typically a good idea in the real world of business. Only in academia do the inmates (faculty and students) run the assylum.

Hey now, don't get it twisted. Of course the alumni should have input. But, people on this message board are acting like just because they did not get to express their singular opinion that the whole process is flawed. I'm just saying it's logistically impossible to have the input of every alumni ever. We know based on the actual facts that thousands of alumni were in fact polled. That's all I'm saying.

Plus, we've known for several decades that the name was under review. So, there was ample time for people to express their opinions to the administration. In fact, many of them did. When I was in school and several times after my graduation, several students and alumni voiced their opinions. People on here seem to have a selective memory and are only complaining now because they don't like the outcome.

[valpotx]

Gosh, you are so right, MP91.

You don't have to ask alumni our opinions. Adverse opinions are always a nuisance anyway.  Perhaps you should ban alumni from university twitter accounts.   

But asking customers for their thoughts is typically a good idea in the real world of business. Only in academia do the inmates (faculty and students) run the assylum.

Hey now, don't get it twisted. Of course the alumni should have input. But, people on this message board are acting like just because they did not get to express their singular opinion that the whole process is flawed. I'm just saying it's logistically impossible to have the input of every alumni ever. We know based on the actual facts that thousands of alumni were in fact polled. That's all I'm saying.

Plus, we've known for several decades that the name was under review. So, there was ample time for people to express their opinions to the administration. In fact, many of them did. When I was in school and several times after my graduation, several students and alumni voiced their opinions. People on here seem to have a selective memory and are only complaining now because they don't like the outcome.

I don't think that you get the point that, yes, a vocal minority had made it known for several decades that they don't like the Crusader mascot, but the quick nature of how this seemed to develop in the last few weeks and how it was announced, is what is causing the consternation.  It is not being afraid of change, absolutely loving the Crusader as a mascot, or only complaining because folks don't like the outcome.  I would equate your attitude to being a sore 'winner' in this scenario, since you can't see past the forest for the trees. 

[valpo64]

I agree that the lousy Crusader mascot needed to go...but the nickname "Crusaders" did not.  But I feel much better now that the gentleman said the name change will help solve our financial and enrollment woes.  Wow!

[mp91]

Gosh, you are so right, MP91.

You don't have to ask alumni our opinions. Adverse opinions are always a nuisance anyway.  Perhaps you should ban alumni from university twitter accounts.   

But asking customers for their thoughts is typically a good idea in the real world of business. Only in academia do the inmates (faculty and students) run the assylum.

Hey now, don't get it twisted. Of course the alumni should have input. But, people on this message board are acting like just because they did not get to express their singular opinion that the whole process is flawed. I'm just saying it's logistically impossible to have the input of every alumni ever. We know based on the actual facts that thousands of alumni were in fact polled. That's all I'm saying.

Plus, we've known for several decades that the name was under review. So, there was ample time for people to express their opinions to the administration. In fact, many of them did. When I was in school and several times after my graduation, several students and alumni voiced their opinions. People on here seem to have a selective memory and are only complaining now because they don't like the outcome.

I don't think that you get the point that, yes, a vocal minority had made it known for several decades that they don't like the Crusader mascot, but the quick nature of how this seemed to develop in the last few weeks and how it was announced, is what is causing the consternation.  It is not being afraid of change, absolutely loving the Crusader as a mascot, or only complaining because folks don't like the outcome.  I would equate your attitude to being a sore 'winner' in this scenario, since you can't see past the forest for the trees.

I understand what you're saying. I understand your argument. I just don't think it's very accurate. I don't know how you could bring up the "quick nature" of it when the name has been under continual review. It was reviewed in the 90s, the 2000's, the 2010s. So, I'm just saying a three decade reviewing process isn't "quick." But, if you did not receive the email, I can see how this could be unexpected. But just because something is unexpected, doesn't make the process flawed.

I don't know guys, I'm not trying to be a "sore winner" and I certainly do not want to be a university sympathizer (because they have made several mistakes along the way). No one really wins when you have to change a symbol of your university. I just think some people are being overly harsh.

[wh]

There might be 7700 completed surveys (who even knows?), but even if there are I seriously doubt 7700 people completed them. There are too many people on this thread who indicate that they were left out for that to sound credible in the slightest.

[valpotx]

But the mascot was not truly "reviewed" in the 90s, 2000s, or 2010s.  You can't say that just because it got brought up on occasion as a hot topic by a small group of students/faculty, that it has been reviewed for a few decades.  The survey was only recently sent out, and as others have stated that actually saw the thing, was very purposeful in not stating the intent.  Hardly anyone is going to say that they are more tied to the mascot name, than the actual university name.  To then utilize those results as a basis for getting rid of the mascot, is definitely false equivalency.  I guarantee if it would have been worded differently, tied to getting rid of the Crusader as mascot, the response would have been different, and people wouldn't be complaining about the process as much, since the survey message wouldn't be hidden. 

Tied to my grievance around the announcement and including an inconsequential SBP in the video, that could have been easily avoided, in just keeping to the Interim President's messaging.  That was just plain dumb.

[vu72]

I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to provide me with any hard evidence that the Crusader name has been adopted by, or linked to, hate groups. 

This is part of a Reuters article:

The Crusader, one of the white supremacist group's most prominent publications, published a lengthy endorsement and defense of Trump's message on the front page of its current issue under the headline: "Make America Great Again."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-kkk-idUSKBN12X2IG

https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/11/02/kkk-newspaper-backs-donald-trump/

[a3uge]

I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to provide me with any hard evidence that the Crusader name has been adopted by, or linked to, hate groups. 

This is part of a Reuters article:

The Crusader, one of the white supremacist group's most prominent publications, published a lengthy endorsement and defense of Trump's message on the front page of its current issue under the headline: "Make America Great Again."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-kkk-idUSKBN12X2IG

https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/11/02/kkk-newspaper-backs-donald-trump/

Ah yes, the super popular Crusader newspaper which seems to have such a following that the only reference to it that anyone can find is 4 years old. Too bad they didn't name it The Bulldog.

[wh]

FWIW, "the Brown and Gold" may be highly offensive in its own right. Gold symbolizes western civilization and values, capitalism, class distinction, power, wealth, privilege, elitism, and oppression. Brown? I don't know yet, but give me a little time. I'm sure I'll think of something.

[valpopal]

Well, everyone that made this decision is going to be gone in a couple weeks, as the new administration takes over. So, you won't have to worry about the same leadership. But, as we all know, the University did make several missteps over the last couple of decades. One of them was not prioritizing diversity in its student body. This change was likely meant with this in mind.

I believe VU has prioritized diversity in its student body with numerous outreach programs, recruitment and retainment strategies, on-campus organizations, scholarship funding, and other efforts. According to "College Factual," Valparaiso rates above the national average in each of the following diversity categories: ethnic, gender, and geographic, as well as overall diversity. It states: "Valparaiso University is above average in overall diversity" and "Valpo's representation of the races is on par with the national average." https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/diversity/#secOverall

[oklahomamick]

Is holy cross changing their mascot?  They are the crusaders too.  They play in the patriot league.  Maybe the league name also needs to be changed from patriot. 

[VUSL98]

I was not aware of this publication.  There is also the Chicago Crusader newspaper, an African-American publication, that continues to this day.  Too bad that connection was not made.

[IndyValpo]

Is holy cross changing their mascot?  They are the crusaders too.  They play in the patriot league.  Maybe the league name also needs to be changed from patriot. 

HC kept the Crusaders  but dropped the Knight mascot in 2018 it appears. Their Crusader is a crusade for social change on something like that.

[a3uge]

Is holy cross changing their mascot?  They are the crusaders too.  They play in the patriot league.  Maybe the league name also needs to be changed from patriot. 

HC kept the Crusaders  but dropped the Knight mascot in 2018 it appears. Their Crusader is a crusade for social change on something like that.

There's a 1% chance they are the Crusaders by this time next year.

[mp91]

Well, everyone that made this decision is going to be gone in a couple weeks, as the new administration takes over. So, you won't have to worry about the same leadership. But, as we all know, the University did make several missteps over the last couple of decades. One of them was not prioritizing diversity in its student body. This change was likely meant with this in mind.

I believe VU has prioritized diversity in its student body with numerous outreach programs, recruitment and retainment strategies, on-campus organizations, scholarship funding, and other efforts. According to "College Factual," Valparaiso rates above the national average in each of the following diversity categories: ethnic, gender, and geographic, as well as overall diversity. It states: "Valparaiso University is above average in overall diversity" and "Valpo's representation of the races is on par with the national average." https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/diversity/#secOverall

Anyone who has attended the University in the last 15 years Knows that diversity has been a major problem at the University. There was even a former basketball player who even admitted that part of the reason he transferred was because there were very few people in his classes that "looked like him" and he felt uncomfortable with the lack of diversity.

Another service college-simply says Valpo has "low" scores for racial diversity.

If you research further, there is a lot of demographic information out there as well that is pretty damning. Around 2500 students are white, while only 211 are black, only 334 are Hispanic, and a only 72 are Asian ( for the record, there are also around 300 that are race unknown/mixed). Even if you include the mixed and race unknown groupings, it's clear that the University has a diversity problem.

As a student, I know several minorities that felt underrepresented and felt uncomfortable having to be the only minority in the classroom. One of our professors would even call on the same kid over and over when we talked about poor people in Chicago, basically because she assumed he had expertise on the matter because he was a minority. Again, this Prof. incident may be rare. But still, if you're on campus, you definitely notice the lack of minority representation. Or, you could even look at the crowd at a basketball game.

[vuny98]

Well, everyone that made this decision is going to be gone in a couple weeks, as the new administration takes over. So, you won't have to worry about the same leadership. But, as we all know, the University did make several missteps over the last couple of decades. One of them was not prioritizing diversity in its student body. This change was likely meant with this in mind.

I believe VU has prioritized diversity in its student body with numerous outreach programs, recruitment and retainment strategies, on-campus organizations, scholarship funding, and other efforts. According to "College Factual," Valparaiso rates above the national average in each of the following diversity categories: ethnic, gender, and geographic, as well as overall diversity. It states: "Valparaiso University is above average in overall diversity" and "Valpo's representation of the races is on par with the national average." https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/valparaiso-university/student-life/diversity/#secOverall

Anyone who has attended the University in the last 15 years Knows that diversity has been a major problem at the University. There was even a former basketball player who even admitted that part of the reason he transferred was because there were very few people in his classes that "looked like him" and he felt uncomfortable with the lack of diversity. Another service college-simply says Valpo has "low" scores for racial diversity. If you research further, there is a lot of demographic information out there as well that is pretty damning. Around 2500 students are white, while only 211 are black, only 334 are Hispanic, and a only 72 are Asian ( for the record, there are also around 300 that are race unknown/mixed). Even if you include the mixed and race unknown groupings, it's clear that the University has a diversity problem. As a student, I know several minorities that felt underrepresented and felt uncomfortable having to be the only minority in the classroom. One of our professors would even call on the same kid over and over when we talked about poor people in Chicago, basically because she assumed he had expertise on the matter because he was a minority. Again, this Prof. incident may be rare. But still, if you're on campus, you definitely notice the lack of minority representation. Or, you could even look at the crowd at a basketball game.

I always thought that Valpo did a decent job at diversity. The international program in particular was very strong while I was there.
It's easy to look at the numbers and say we have a problem, but how does this compare to other school of similar size/stature?
"Enrollment in the 468 best-funded and most selective four-year institutions is 75 percent white, the Georgetown University Center for Education and the Workforce reports."
So it appears, based on your numbers, we are slightly better than the average. So not a Valpo "problem" but rather a common theme across all universities.

I am all for diversity and being inclusive, but what I am not for is forcing diversity. Fact is you can't force people to attend a University. Valpo is a small liberal arts college in a small Indiana town. Furthermore, our biggest programs (Engineering, meteorology, etc.) have higher participation rates among certain demographics.

If we want to focus more efforts on community outreach with demographics to improve our diversity, fine. If we want to invest in programs that will draw a more diverse student body, sure. If you want to give away free tuition or lower admission criteria simply to hit a self imposed quota, then I think that's wrong. If we think "Crusader" was keeping minority students away, I don't think there is anything I can tell you to convince you otherwise, but I strongly disagree.

My time and memories at Valpo were very inclusive and diverse. I can say I am proud of the diversity efforts during my time there and never once felt it to be a problem. Then again, I'm a white male, so I will fully admit my experience very well may have been different from others.

[valpotx]

Agreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.' 

[oklahomamick]

My roommate (Valpo athletic hall of fame) from my days up north at Valpo, has some good quotes in the NW Indiana times.

https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/mascot-debate-at-valparaiso-has-proponents-and-opponents-just-as-it-did-in-the-1940s/article_cbb15837-c915-557e-9668-5194e3f60bd2.html

[wh]

My roommate (Valpo athletic hall of fame) from my days up north at Valpo, has some good quotes in the NW Indiana times.

https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/mascot-debate-at-valparaiso-has-proponents-and-opponents-just-as-it-did-in-the-1940s/article_cbb15837-c915-557e-9668-5194e3f60bd2.html

Mick - I'm always curious about former students who came a long way to go to Valpo. How did you know about Valpo clear down in the Sooner state? Did you have a family or Lutheran connection, did you tour the campus first or come sight unseen, etc.?

[oklahomamick]

I was at the "shot" in OKC with my father my sophomore year of high school. 

That same year I went to Spain with Region III Olympic Development program who had Clint Dempsey (highest paid American soccer player) and a couple other guys who played in two World Cups.  So I had a lot of different opportunities because I played with some good players and I peaked during high school. (wish I was better in college).  I took an official visit to Valpo, SMU, and Liberty and unofficial to ORU a couple times. 

I enjoyed my visit at Valpo and liked the guys on the team.  My dad and I liked watching and rooting for Valpo in OKC a couple years before.  Everyone in OKC was rooting for Valpo.  The local news (we currently have 2 Valpo alumni weathermen) loved the Valpo story. 

Valpo was the top of my list out of my official visits.  Financially Valpo made the most since. 

Although it was very difficult for me (academically and distance) I would not trade it for the world!  That's the short version of my personal testimony. 

The high school that I teach at in Tulsa has sent two kids to Valpo.  They both studied Chinese at Valpo. 

[JD24]

Agreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.'

Isn't 7% nearly 50% lower than the 13% black population? That's actually a fairly large differential.

[valpotx]

Agreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.'

Isn't 7% nearly 50% lower than the 13% black population? That's actually a fairly large differential.

Which amounts to 100 students, so not a large gap overall from an actual student count perspective.

Mick, you roomed with Giancola?  Your circle of friends wasn't that far off from my circle of friends.  I know that James Park used to hang out with Giancola a lot, as well as a few other baseball players.

[valpopal]

Agreed with the above.  There is only so much that you can do, short of giving away scholarships specifically targeted to underrepresented populations.  Around 7% black is not too far off from the 13% of US population metric, but the Hispanic percentage can definitely use work, as it relates to the % of the US population.  Room to improve, but I wouldn't say 'low.'

Isn't 7% nearly 50% lower than the 13% black population? That's actually a fairly large differential.

Although the US black population is 13%, the national high school graduation rate for African Americans is 10% lower than for whites. In some states from which VU obtains its enrollment, like Wisconsin, it is nearly 25% lower. Also, 10% of African American students attend Historically Black Universities, reducing the pool for other institutions. Add the fact that Valparaiso is an expensive religious-affiliated private university not located in an urban area and situated in a conservative state, plus competing with nearby Notre Dame, Butler, IU, and Purdue, all with more national recognition, and you can see that the number of realistic possible applicants is closer to the 7% than the 13%. VU should be applauded for prioritizing diversity with numerous outreach programs, recruitment and retainment strategies, on-campus organizations, scholarship funding, and other efforts.