Valpo vs Ashland Sat Oct 30th 6pm

[wh]

One positive I took in reading what the players said after was how clear they took responsibility, seemed aware of the issues, and indicated they were going to work on them. Honestly, that is more important than a coach seeing it. Edwards indicated he realized he played to the crowd too much and needed better shot selection. Kithier said they need to sit down and watch the tape and see the hard lessons it taught. Taylor seemed to have a clear idea that they underestimated Ashland and paid for it. All of those comments indicate both leadership and investment.

I do think that our team believed their hype a bit and while I want them confident and raring to go I don't want that to lead to complacency.  Let's see how the players respond as much as the coach. We also now have 5 players that have experienced 3 different College coaching styles and they can bring some of that to the team practice as well. 

I'd rather lose should win games at the beginning of the season than at the end but I do agree that our bench needs to get better and fast, which may be why they were in for a while to get experience. I don't think matt would ever say it but he may be willing to lose these two games if it means getting to send his freshman in for longer periods to increase their exposure and experience when it doesn't count against the record.

This is good stuff. Where did you see these comments? I missed it.

[crusader05]

It's in Paul's write up of the game.

https://www.nwitimes.com/sports/basketball/college/beacons-not-hitting-panic-button-after-exhibition-loss-to-d-ii-ashland/article_44a41b32-c19b-5d89-bb14-8eaedb9286d2.html

[JD24]

My guess you red shirt because you don't want to waste a year of his time where, due to the current class you have on the floor he will only get maybe 10 minutes of playing time vs four years where you have him on the floor for 30 plus minutes plus a year to just practice and put on muscle and learn. There are lots of reasons to red shirt. He could need to get used to school, he could need to put on muscle, he could need to mature.

I think this board has significantly overrated this roster if Young would be limited to 10 mins a game. It makes no sense. Now, if some of the other adjustments such as school or maturity are an issue, maybe it makes more sense.

[EddieCabot]

I was under the impression that red-shirting had nothing to do with exhibition games, only official games on the schedule.

Actually, I looked this up sometime ago. As I recall an exhibition game does count as a game played. Basically, any game that is officially scheduled, score is kept, publicly attended, etc. counts. This differs from a "secret scrimmage" in which no score is kept, it's a closed-door event, etc.

BTW, NCAA-approved games prior to the season (like our Canadian trip a couple of years ago) do not count as games played for redshirt purposes.

I always thought that freshmen (but not upperclassmen) could play in the exhibition games and still redshirt.  However, I'll go with wh's position as I'm too lazy to research it. 

[vu72]

One positive I took in reading what the players said after was how clear they took responsibility, seemed aware of the issues, and indicated they were going to work on them. Honestly, that is more important than a coach seeing it. Edwards indicated he realized he played to the crowd too much and needed better shot selection. Kithier said they need to sit down and watch the tape and see the hard lessons it taught. Taylor seemed to have a clear idea that they underestimated Ashland and paid for it. All of those comments indicate both leadership and investment.

I do think that our team believed their hype a bit and while I want them confident and raring to go I don't want that to lead to complacency.  Let's see how the players respond as much as the coach. We also now have 5 players that have experienced 3 different College coaching styles and they can bring some of that to the team practice as well. 

I'd rather lose should win games at the beginning of the season than at the end but I do agree that our bench needs to get better and fast, which may be why they were in for a while to get experience. I don't think matt would ever say it but he may be willing to lose these two games if it means getting to send his freshman in for longer periods to increase their exposure and experience when it doesn't count against the record.

This is good stuff. Where did you see these comments? I missed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMRZwH-ufek

[wh]

I was under the impression that red-shirting had nothing to do with exhibition games, only official games on the schedule.

Actually, I looked this up sometime ago. As I recall an exhibition game does count as a game played. Basically, any game that is officially scheduled, score is kept, publicly attended, etc. counts. This differs from a "secret scrimmage" in which no score is kept, it's a closed-door event, etc.

BTW, NCAA-approved games prior to the season (like our Canadian trip a couple of years ago) do not count as games played for redshirt purposes.

I always thought that freshmen (but not upperclassmen) could play in the exhibition games and still redshirt.  However, I'll go with wh's position as I'm too lazy to research it. 

That does ring a faint bell. You could be right about that. Unfortunately, that level of detail usually resides in some obscure location in one of several NCAA rule books. It would be interesting to know, or not. lol

[wh]

My guess you red shirt because you don't want to waste a year of his time where, due to the current class you have on the floor he will only get maybe 10 minutes of playing time vs four years where you have him on the floor for 30 plus minutes plus a year to just practice and put on muscle and learn. There are lots of reasons to red shirt. He could need to get used to school, he could need to put on muscle, he could need to mature.

I think this board has significantly overrated this roster if Young would be limited to 10 mins a game. It makes no sense. Now, if some of the other adjustments such as school or maturity are an issue, maybe it makes more sense.

Based on last Saturday's lineup, you're absolutely right. But, we were missing Ben (a 30 min. player), Kobe 30-32, and Connor 10. That's 70 more minutes to add to the equation. Now add in Sheldon 30, Thomas 30, Trevor/Darius/Eron 40, Kevion 20, Joe 5-10. That's a 10-player rotation and 200 minutes. Keyondre is probably good enough to grab some of those minutes, but there simply aren't that many minutes to grab.

Kevion is gone after this year. I would expect Keyondre to take his minutes and maybe more than that. To be a 20-30 minute freshman on a potentially very good Valley team could make for a huge freshman year.

Another thing that can get confusing is why is Darius in the rotation and Keyondre isn't, when Keyondre is clearly the better player. The answer is simply we're short on 1's and 2's, and long on 3's and 4's.

Lastly, nobody is going to make anyone red shirt. He can play right now if he decides that's in his best interest.

[DuneHwx]

 I think you're going to see this all over this year. Basically any freshman with potential for long term success will likely be redshirting unless the team is dangerously short at their position. The free covid year created a glut that will hurt the high school 21s and 22s, they gotta do what's best for them.

[crusader05]

Yeah I think the concern for Young is that we're strongest where he best fits. If he could play 5 or 1 he'd see more minutes but that doesn't seem to be his strength.

[justducky]

Based on last Saturday's lineup, you're absolutely right. But, we were missing Ben (a 30 min. player), Kobe 30-32, and Connor 10. That's 70 more minutes to add to the equation. Now add in Sheldon 30, Thomas 30, Trevor/Darius/Eron 40, Kevion 20, Joe 5-10. That's a 10-player rotation and 200 minutes. Keyondre is probably good enough to grab some of those minutes, but there simply aren't that many minutes to grab.

Kevion is gone after this year. I would expect Keyondre to take his minutes and maybe more than that. To be a 20-30 minute freshman on a potentially very good Valley team could make for a huge freshman year.

Another thing that can get confusing is why is Darius in the rotation and Keyondre isn't, when Keyondre is clearly the better player. The answer is simply we're short on 1's and 2's, and long on 3's and 4's.

Lastly, nobody is going to make anyone red shirt. He can play right now if he decides that's in his best interest.

When Toledo hits town the real season starts. I agree that Palesse and Young should probably red shirt with King, Barrett and Krikke soon filling the lineup and sopping up minutes. Meanwhile Cam and Keyondre could appear in some important ( 6 max?) games while we are shorthanded and still be theoretically able to red shirt. We have lots of winnable but difficult games before King is eligible. How should we best use these freshmen for maximum team benefit? Keep in mind what happened to Siggey two years back when Matt was deeply shorthanded and chose to play him against Indiana St thus getting the win and costing him a red shirt year.

[wh]

Based on last Saturday's lineup, you're absolutely right. But, we were missing Ben (a 30 min. player), Kobe 30-32, and Connor 10. That's 70 more minutes to add to the equation. Now add in Sheldon 30, Thomas 30, Trevor/Darius/Eron 40, Kevion 20, Joe 5-10. That's a 10-player rotation and 200 minutes. Keyondre is probably good enough to grab some of those minutes, but there simply aren't that many minutes to grab.

Kevion is gone after this year. I would expect Keyondre to take his minutes and maybe more than that. To be a 20-30 minute freshman on a potentially very good Valley team could make for a huge freshman year.

Another thing that can get confusing is why is Darius in the rotation and Keyondre isn't, when Keyondre is clearly the better player. The answer is simply we're short on 1's and 2's, and long on 3's and 4's.

Lastly, nobody is going to make anyone red shirt. He can play right now if he decides that's in his best interest.

When Toledo hits town the real season starts. I agree that Palesse and Young should probably red shirt with King, Barrett and Krikke soon filling the lineup and sopping up minutes. Meanwhile Cam and Keyondre could appear in some important ( 6 max?) games while we are shorthanded and still be theoretically able to red shirt. We have lots of winnable but difficult games before King is eligible. How should we best use these freshmen for maximum team benefit? Keep in mind what happened to Siggey two years back when Matt was deeply shorthanded and chose to play him against Indiana St thus getting the win and costing him a red shirt year.

Unfortunately, the only way they can play at all and still be able to redshirt is if they suffer a season-ending injury (medical redshirt). Interestingly, the NCAA made a change this year where football players can now play up to 4 games and still opt to take a voluntary redshirt. Rumors were that basketball would follow suit, but to my knowledge it never happened.

[justducky]

Based on last Saturday's lineup, you're absolutely right. But, we were missing Ben (a 30 min. player), Kobe 30-32, and Connor 10. That's 70 more minutes to add to the equation. Now add in Sheldon 30, Thomas 30, Trevor/Darius/Eron 40, Kevion 20, Joe 5-10. That's a 10-player rotation and 200 minutes. Keyondre is probably good enough to grab some of those minutes, but there simply aren't that many minutes to grab.

Kevion is gone after this year. I would expect Keyondre to take his minutes and maybe more than that. To be a 20-30 minute freshman on a potentially very good Valley team could make for a huge freshman year.

Another thing that can get confusing is why is Darius in the rotation and Keyondre isn't, when Keyondre is clearly the better player. The answer is simply we're short on 1's and 2's, and long on 3's and 4's.

Lastly, nobody is going to make anyone red shirt. He can play right now if he decides that's in his best interest.

When Toledo hits town the real season starts. I agree that Palesse and Young should probably red shirt with King, Barrett and Krikke soon filling the lineup and sopping up minutes. Meanwhile Cam and Keyondre could appear in some important ( 6 max?) games while we are shorthanded and still be theoretically able to red shirt. We have lots of winnable but difficult games before King is eligible. How should we best use these freshmen for maximum team benefit? Keep in mind what happened to Siggey two years back when Matt was deeply shorthanded and chose to play him against Indiana St thus getting the win and costing him a red shirt year.

Unfortunately, the only way they can play at all and still be able to redshirt is if they suffer a season-ending injury (medical redshirt). Interestingly, the NCAA made a change this year where football players can now play up to 4 games and still opt to take a voluntary redshirt. Rumors were that basketball would follow suit, but to my knowledge it never happened.

OK! Decision time is Tuesday and we have already seen how short our forward position bench is without Krikke, Barrett and King. If the first two can not go vs Toledo and Young or Palesse might considerably tilt the odds then what should Matt do?

[vu72]

what should Matt do?

Given the injury situation, now and probably in the future, I just don't see how he can red-shirt both Cam and Slim. I'm guessing he red-shirts Slim and keeps Cam active.

[tjjvalpo]

There is a reason that he is called Slim. Kithier and Krikke both have 55 lbs on him. There is no way he is going to be able handle the physicality of the MVC on defense. I am sure they have seen this in practice and he understands that he needs to go through a year of weight training to put on 20-30 lbs of muscle. He should red shirt.