Valpo at Loyola 8 pm 1/11 on CBS Sports Network

[valpopal]

The obvious takeaway is that Valpo should have won in regulation. They were undone by some poor decisions and some bad officiating. Valpo had four players in foul trouble when Loyola had only a total of four fouls in the game. Kithier was clearly held on the inbounds off his hand, and the ref missed the call, which happened often in the game. Officials will tend to favor teams at the top of the conference, especially on their home court (I admit it happened in the Horizon League for the Crusaders at times), but Valpo has not become that team in the MVC while Loyola has.


If complaining to the official caused the technical foul, that hurts; however, as I have said in past years, players get in that situation when Lottich isn't forceful in objecting to the refs' poor performance. He should give and take the heat from the officials more so the player knows he has his back and will argue for the player. I didn't see him confront the officials forcefully on their bad calls once during the game. Officials give coaches more leeway than they will a walk-on guard, and coaches' complaints are usually more effective or persuasive. If a player gets a technical for saying something in the heat of the moment in give and take with an opponent in a game like this, the ref should show some restraint, maybe just a warning.


Also, with a 10-point lead and less than 8 minutes left, good coaching should win the game. In fact, let's acknowledge the final plays that could have won the game at the end of regulation and the end of the first overtime were poorly planned and executed. The second overtime clearly belonged to Norris, though it should never have gotten that far. 

[AB]

Again......where was this effort on defense at UNI or even for more than 15 minutes at home against SIU? Effort was good tonight. Very inconsistent effort from this team on defense from game to game. Who's fault is this? Game was lost tonight in last minute of second half. 3 straight possessions, 3 turnovers. Curious to see what effort shows up Saturday at home versus MSU. Also.......who's team is this on offense?

[mj]

Which coach has been a head coach for 6 years and which one has been a head coach for 1 year? 

Valentine was a grad assistant in the Big Ten, a successful assistant coach in the Horizon League, a successful assistant coach in the MVC, and now a successful coach in the MVC.

Our coach was a successful Horizon League coach who jumped right in the driver's seat of an MVC team.

Valentine worked his way up. Lottich was plopped in the driver's seat. Learning on the job is a rough go in college basketball (and life).

[Old Timer]

Good effort by the players. Unfortunately, they were not put in the best position to win. We do not have an organized press attack and had trouble getting the ball in bounds to players meeting the ball. Our offense turned to organized playground during crunch time. Everything one on one. If it comes down to a last second shot, we are toast. I have not observed any special sets at any time. Homer, Bryce, and Scott always had a special set to go to. This was evident after a timeout. I am sure many of you remember the back pick cuts to a lob pass dunk that Homer ran. Scott even ran a similar play in the National Championship game. Our kids are being shortchanged because they are not given the tools. Discipline and execution of the basketball fundamentals is not and has not been a quality of this program.

[justducky]

Rudy played a hell of a game tonight. Would have liked to get the technical foul back and the ill timed turnover but otherwise he was great.

Only one TO for Preston and 0 for Darius in a combined 50 minutes of basketball. With Anderson out we absolutely could not have asked for more.

My zoom meetings ran over and then my game replay timed out.  Fortunately I only missed the last 2:10 of the second overtime and that portion didn't go very well.

I honestly don't know if we can be an outside threat to win at St. Louis or not. Preseason I took that as a given.  If we are then we may have to do it from the 7 seed or lower again. Despite our Valley strength of schedule we are very close to being 0-5. As difficult as I know it is, I keep thinking this bunch should be able to win short handed.

[Jdubs]

Hey guys, Loyola fan here. I like looking through opposing message boards to see what other teams are saying about mine. Looking at this thread it appears that the broadcast did a bad job of explaining the technicals, so I thought I would tell you what I saw, as I was at the game.

The first occurred after a Lucas Williamson 3. Loyola used a screen to get him open, and I believe your player (I'm sorry but I don't know names) was upset about the screen and thought it was an offensive foul. I was on the opposite side so I couldn't hear what he said, but he got in the ref's face and was given the technical.

The second occurred by your pg (I believe #2). He made an extremely tough finish over our pg, Braden Norris. It was super impressive but immediately after making the basket, he ran right up to Braden and got in his face  when going back up the court. He was given a technical and immediately turned to his coach saying "I didn't do anything" and your coach yelled "I literally saw you do it right in front of me" before benching him.

Of course take this as you will, but this is what I saw at the game. Best of luck the rest of the season! (Except the next game against Loyola  )

[valpotx]

Think of some of the individual plays in regulation over the final 4-5 minutes.  Rudy & Krikke literally dribble off of their own legs, due to being closely defended.  You have 2 really dumb technical fouls.  We have 2 inbounds plays, both were getting held by the defense, but were thrown just a little bit too far outside of their reach/near the sideline.  Those are really key individual plays, and each have to do with situation-specific nerves or emotions.  The only way that you can coach such a thing, is to counsel when they happen in-game, so if this comes up again, they have been there/done that. 

On a side note, I was wondering when the refs were reviewing the pass to see who touched it last, do they say to themselves, 'geez, we sure f'ed that up!  The defender's arm is hooked around Kithier's back, and gives him a tug, so that he can't get that pass as he should have.  Oh well, Loyola ball!'

[humbleopinion]

I started this thread with the following hopes for the team:

This game will be a challenge for the Beacons who still are trying to find their footing.  Kevion will need to continue hitting threes, eight footers will have to start falling for Kobe, Kithier will need to be a force on the boards -- all this to keep the game close.

All three of my hopes were realized, and the game was close.

I am amazed that the posters on this board cannot give credit to a team that came in 15 point underdogs and took it to the Ramblers on their home court.  It was clear that they came out with fire in their bellies and executed a strong game plan.  Even when put into foul trouble, the players maintained their intensity challenging shots and forcing the action. 

This is the second time that I have traveled to the Gentile Center and watched Valpo play their hearts out only to be stymied by questionable calls in the last minute of action.  I walked out frustrated but proud of the team.

[oklahomamick]

Remember the short but great rivalry Against Detroit mercy?

They had athletic and great players.  But what did we always say they were missing?  Go back to those threads and see our comments. 

We always accused them of street ball, lack of discipline, never any set plays.

Watching this valpo team reminds me of those Detroit teams.  Just throw the ball out there and let them play. 

[Pgmado]

Hey guys, Loyola fan here. I like looking through opposing message boards to see what other teams are saying about mine. Looking at this thread it appears that the broadcast did a bad job of explaining the technicals, so I thought I would tell you what I saw, as I was at the game.

The first occurred after a Lucas Williamson 3. Loyola used a screen to get him open, and I believe your player (I'm sorry but I don't know names) was upset about the screen and thought it was an offensive foul. I was on the opposite side so I couldn't hear what he said, but he got in the ref's face and was given the technical.

The second occurred by your pg (I believe #2). He made an extremely tough finish over our pg, Braden Norris. It was super impressive but immediately after making the basket, he ran right up to Braden and got in his face  when going back up the court. He was given a technical and immediately turned to his coach saying "I didn't do anything" and your coach yelled "I literally saw you do it right in front of me" before benching him.

Of course take this as you will, but this is what I saw at the game. Best of luck the rest of the season! (Except the next game against Loyola  )

Ruedinger wasn't benched after the technical.

[vok22]

I started this thread with the following hopes for the team:

This game will be a challenge for the Beacons who still are trying to find their footing.  Kevion will need to continue hitting threes, eight footers will have to start falling for Kobe, Kithier will need to be a force on the boards -- all this to keep the game close.

All three of my hopes were realized, and the game was close.

I am amazed that the posters on this board cannot give credit to a team that came in 15 point underdogs and took it to the Ramblers on their home court.  It was clear that they came out with fire in their bellies and executed a strong game plan.  Even when put into foul trouble, the players maintained their intensity challenging shots and forcing the action. 

Because they lost and we are sick of losing. They ONLY come out with that intensity when we play good teams, and most of the time we still lose just close enough to call it a moral victory. We get our hopes up for next game and then come out flat against a mediocre team and lose again. It's been six years. It's time to win of move on to somebody who can. 

[oklahomamick]

Honest question.  Would love to hear valpo fans thoughts. 

Does Alec Peters score as many points under Lottich?  Does Alec make near as many three's in a Lottich lead team? 

[vu72]

So last year we go into Loyola and play our hearts out with an inferior talented team and almost win but, they had a guy  named Krutwig so we really didn't expect to win right?

So this year we add a bunch of talent, Loyola doesn't have Krutwig and, we lose.  Did we expect to win?  Better talent, same result.  same coach.

[valpopal]

I started this thread with the following hopes for the team:

This game will be a challenge for the Beacons who still are trying to find their footing.  Kevion will need to continue hitting threes, eight footers will have to start falling for Kobe, Kithier will need to be a force on the boards -- all this to keep the game close.

All three of my hopes were realized, and the game was close.

I am amazed that the posters on this board cannot give credit to a team that came in 15 point underdogs and took it to the Ramblers on their home court.  It was clear that they came out with fire in their bellies and executed a strong game plan.  Even when put into foul trouble, the players maintained their intensity challenging shots and forcing the action. 

Because they lost and we are sick of losing. They ONLY come out with that intensity when we play good teams, and most of the time we still lose just close enough to call it a moral victory. We get our hopes up for next game and then come out flat against a mediocre team and lose again. It's been six years. It's time to win of move on to somebody who can.

"No such things as moral victories. Show me somebody who's all right with losing, and I'll show you a loser," Chris Paul.

[crusader05]

I think the root of the frustration for me is this:

If the team that played Loyola came out at UNI and SIU we would have won those games(or at least one of them) and then played Loyola on double over time in their own court.

That's a completely different dynamic than what we saw and attitudes would have matched.

We would have wanted more wins, what fan base doesn't. but there would be a more reasonable, we played tough and it's harder to win away games etc etc.  reaction from most on the board.

Instead we see what the team could be but only in very specific situations. It's the inconsistency, more than any other issue to me that remains the thing that most frustrates me.

[justducky]

Watching this valpo team reminds me of those Detroit teams.  Just throw the ball out there and let them play. 

Does Alec Peters score as many points under Lottich?  Does Alec make near as many three's in a Lottich lead team? 

Good point and questions. Unfortunately this could take 500 words just to touch on the high points. I don't even want to try a detailed answer other than to say that Alec would be less of a focus for many reasons.

[NativeCheesehead]

For all our frustrations with the offensive system, it's fair to note that outside of Krikke, very few players have much experience in the system. The few guys that excel in it leave. Picture last night's team with Clay, JFL, and Jacob O on it. Or even two of the three. Contrast that with Loyola who has multiple guys in their rotation with 2-4 years in their system. You can't simply plug and play with transfers each and every year. Kobe is beginning to look the part of star on the court. And my guess is if he can get another year, it will be elsewhere. And you can't tell me Krikke's phone (or his AAU coach's phone) won't be ringing this offseason as well.

[Old Timer]

A significant aspect of coaching is getting the players in a situation where they can utilize their strengths an be successful. Krikke had three shots and according to the announcer Loyola was playing small. Some of these guys may be new but they have had ample time to acclimate into the system. There is nothing complicated about what they do.

[valpo64]

Some people live and die with the past...it is time to forget about Alec Peters, Homer and Bryce Drew.  It is silly to compare them with the competition today in the MVC.  Every coach has a different system.  There is absolutely no comparison of competition in the  Valley to the Horizon or Summit leagues; overall complete roster makeups of these teams and level of play.  Deal with it folks!  Yesterday is gone.  Let's give credit for a great effort vs. LU.  Coach had the guys prepared and they responded but ran out of gas...short the team leader and point guard who was replaced by a walk-on and another frosh but still put up as fight against a veteran team listed in the National rankings, playing at home and was as 15-point favorite.

Let's hope the intensity continues this weekend.

[valpopal]

Let's give credit for a great effort vs. LU.  Coach had the guys prepared and they responded but ran out of gas...short the team leader and point guard who was replaced by a walk-on and another frosh but still put up as fight against a veteran team listed in the National rankings, playing at home and was as 15-point favorite.

Let's hope the intensity continues this weekend.

I'm sorry but I now tune out when I hear excuses and rationalizations for losses. It has become a broken record. Every time the team loses there is another variation of the same litany of reasons. Today, it is the absence of Anderson. Our point guards—a freshman and a walk-on— scored 10 points (50% overall, 67% from 2-point, 40% from 3-point) and only made 1 turnover in 50 minutes of play, which happened with 1:12 to go in regulation and did not lead to a Loyola score, so didn't hurt. That should have been good enough.


I also do not believe in moral victories. I don't care if Valpo "put up a fight against a veteran team." I thought we were supposed to be a "veteran team" with all the transfers. I thought we were supposed to match well with a Loyola team without Cameron Krutwig. The simple truth is that this was another loss that should have been a win—with 1:20 left in the 2nd half VU had a 6-point lead—and Valpo is 1-4, sitting in 9th place.

[oklahomamick]

Valpo64 - simply asking how a certain player would be used on this team.  If the current coach would play to his strengths.  If that player would get open looks at 3 in this scheme as he did in the previous scheme.  I think we know the answer....

[wh]

Apparently, I was watching a different game than some of you. What I observed was Matt out coaching Valentine from beginning to end. We controlled the game. We dictated the pace. We continuously frustrated their entire rotation defensively. Valentine looked lost to me.

So why didn't we win? Some guy starts jacking up NBA 3's and hit them all. None of them were in the flow of the offense. They looked desperate, as in "if all else fails, jack up long 3's and pray." That wasn't coaching. None of it was by design. They didn't run him through picks and screens to free him up like Kampe used to do with Travis Bader. If even 1 of those ill-advised 3's had missed the mark, their home winning streak was history. They were desperate, and they pulled a rabbit out of a hat. So God bless 'em.

What is on us were sloppy, inexcusable turnovers on inbounds passes by veteran players that should never let that happen. Regardless of the unconscious 3-point shooting, we had that game if we did nothing more than grab 2 passes and hang onto the freaking ball.

[valpo tundra]

Norris swishing one NBA 3 after another in the clutch was clearly the difference. It reminded me of A.J. Graves doing the same for Butler against us at home years ago. I normally don't like to call out teenagers/young adults playing a game on national TV in front of a lot of people. I'm sure most of us would not do nearly as well. That being said, Sheldon turns the ball over on a very nonchalant inbounds pass, throws two equally nonchalant passes at half court, incurs a lane violation with no one standing next to him, and waits at the sideline at half court dribbling out the clock with no intention of running a play, making a pass, or shooting a few seconds earlier so we could potentially get a rebound or put back. His last second heave was out of desperation instead of an advantage that the play started with. Please keep that play in the NBA with Curry and Jordan where it belongs. All of this within a few minutes at the end of the game. Sheldon should watch the film, listen to some coaching, swallow some pride, then be given a vote of confidence as a starter in the next game.

[oklahomamick]

Sorry WH, we didn't control the pace in the second half.  You noticed they extended their defense?  Did you noticed they high pressured and caused a lot more turnovers in the second half.  These are adjustments made by Loyola and the stats back them up. 

Don't think all of Loyola's 3 point shots were desperation prayers.  I know a big one was a set play out of a timeout. 

We can say this and we can say that.  One thing is not subjective and concrete.  Lottich seems to lose a lot of games in crunch and the losses are adding up. 

For you guys that keep coming up with excuses, Lottich's number aren't helping your arguments. 

[Valpo Joe]

This team has come a long way since November.  From struggles with D2 teams to making a D1 Top 25 team go into 2 OT.  The Turn Overs and poor calls against them made the difference in W/L.  Granted a Ref has the right to ring someone up with a T - but usually there is a warning.  Home Team rules.  Hoping the The Beacons see the Light and continue with the focus on D and good things will happen.  You've got to believe that this was a pivotal game!!!  GO FREAKIN' BEACONS