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Valpo Strategic Plan

Started by vu72, August 06, 2022, 10:02:05 AM

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David81

#250
Quote from: valpopal on February 14, 2023, 03:40:06 PM

The sanctions would mean that all member museums would be expected to refuse loans or exchange arrangements with the Brauer Museum for its unethical action, leaving only permanent art collection holdings for display and eliminating all special exhibitions that occur throughout the year. Donated works would dry up because of the uncertainty and lack of trust this would create. Donated funds would diminish because that income is intended specifically for artworks and maintenance, not to be looted by the university for dorm renovation. Imagine a law school or a business school or a nursing school sanctioned for ethical infractions. Also, it would be like the NCAA refusing to allow other teams to compete against Valpo; therefore, VU must resort to playing intramural teams.


The community that donates to art, especially Friends of Art, contributes quite a bit to enlarging and enhancing the VU art collection, which started from modest beginnings and now includes more than 5,000 pieces. Additionally, the museum itself was the result of a donation, which stipulated it must be named after Richard Brauer.


The O'Keeffe painting is famous worldwide, and as Gregg Hertzlieb says in the video, if it were loaned to every national or international museum in the world that wants it, the work would be on tour 52 weeks of the year. I can't speak specifics about the income of the museum; however, when you consider just the three paintings considered for sale are worth at least $20 million, and then extrapolate the value of the entire collection, you can guess that the museum might be a top candidate as among the best managed and most valuable assets on campus.


On another level, the schism created in the Valparaiso community and damage to VU's reputation likely will be even greater than that caused by the Crusader debacle. The following article is from Indiana Economic Digest:
https://indianaeconomicdigest.net/Content/Default/Major-Indiana-News/Article/Art-museum-and-Valparaiso-University-communities-react-to-art-sale-for-dorm-improvements/-3/5308/113370

It's obvious that this matter is showing the fault lines in the university community, more so than the mascot decision, which is not a good look for an institution that has already been shaken by layoffs and program closures. And even considering legitimate funding needs for upgraded student housing options, this is not a good look for Valpo leadership and the University as a whole. The culture of VU has generally not been one of open, public criticism of the University leadership by its faculty members. But the article linked by valpopal quotes two current faculty, Aimee Tomasek and Gretchen Buggeln, going public with their criticisms. So it's not just about Dick Brauer any more.

Unless an angel donor comes along and drops $20m in VU's laps, or a handy source of funding suddenly reveals itself, this cannot turn out well. If the paintings remain part of the museum, then presumably there's still $20m to raise from other sources, and in the meantime, there are hard feelings left in the wake on both sides. If the paintings are sold, then an identifiable and valued VU constituency will likely be forever aggrieved and angry, and the bad taste surrounding this episode will remain with everyone. And the story will surely be revived when that dorm opens.

David81

This video produced by the University exemplifies the value of exposure to the liberal arts and sciences, in a way that doesn't necessarily translate into short term conceptualizations of ROI: A VU scholarship swimmer who had to take an intro psych course as one of her distribution requirements, and unexpectedly became so enthralled by the subject that she decided to major in psych and is now headed to grad school to study it: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1539762656506332


vu72

Quote from: David81 on February 15, 2023, 06:52:05 PMIf the paintings remain part of the museum, then presumably there's still $20m to raise from other sources,

Exactly.  I suppose Valpo could start a new drive and raise the money in, say, five years or so, just in past the arrival of the pending student shortfall cliff. Remember, the Board is made up of some of Valpo's largest donors.  If they thought finding $20 million would be easy or quick, no doubt they would have chosen a different route.  People get bent out of shape over a lot of things when they card deeply about something.  Nonetheless, difficult decisions need to be made.
Season Results: CBI/CIT: 2008, 2011, 2014  NIT: 2003,2012, 2016(Championship Game) 2017   NCAA: 1962,1966,1967,1969,1973,1996,1997,1998 (Sweet Sixteen),1999, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2013 and 2015

David81

Quote from: elephtheria47 on February 16, 2023, 07:43:27 AM
https://ericzorn.substack.com/p/sell-those-paintings-valpo#%C2%A7to-serve-its-core-mission-sure-valparaiso-university-should-sell-its-art

A differing opinion

And I assume that those who agree with Zorn also agree with his belief -- referenced in this piece and explained in greater detail in another linked below -- that colleges should dump the lion's share of their sports programs, especially those that don't pay for themselves?

What's good for the goose....

https://www.chicagotribune.com/columns/eric-zorn/ct-perspec-zorn-eliminate-minor-college-sports-admissions-scandal-0315-20190314-story.html

crusadermoe

Yep, saw this coming.   Some like arts/music, some like sports.  Neither is core to a future vocation or a broad based education. But if you had to pick the one closer to the core instruction mission of the university, I don't know how you argue for sports.

I have said for 10 -15 years ago that there were big intangibles as well as true revenue to be won by highlighting VU mens' basketball constantly.   Leaving the mid-Con, then the Horizon, for the MVC were excellent moves. They just came too late. Since then some big ships sailed during our window of opportunity. The university didn't seize on the national identity of Homer for baffling reasons in their admissions material. Everywhere I traveled people would say basketball if Valpo came up. Those ships that have sailed were Homer, Scott, Bryce, Broekhoff, and Peters. I honestly think LaBarbera did well with the resources he received.  But now we are stuck with the ARC now with Heckler's debt debacle and the enrollment dive.   

valpopal

Quote from: vu72 on February 16, 2023, 09:25:37 AM
People get bent out of shape over a lot of things when they care deeply about something.
I love the irony of this comment from someone on a fan (short for "fanatic") forum.  ;)

vu72

Quote from: valpo22 on February 16, 2023, 12:24:25 PM
How about they keep the sports and keep the art, and sell some of this land to renovate the dorms:
https://vitalizevalpo.com/property-overview/

Selling/repurposing these parcels are certainly in the works.  I took a look at Zillow and found all kinds of land for sale running from  20,000 an acre to 145,000 an acre.  Let's split the difference and say, on average, the land would be sold at 80,000 an acre.  That would raise 10,000,000.  We'd be half the way there!
Season Results: CBI/CIT: 2008, 2011, 2014  NIT: 2003,2012, 2016(Championship Game) 2017   NCAA: 1962,1966,1967,1969,1973,1996,1997,1998 (Sweet Sixteen),1999, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2013 and 2015

vu84v2

Quote from: vu72 on February 16, 2023, 02:06:32 PM
Quote from: valpo22 on February 16, 2023, 12:24:25 PM
How about they keep the sports and keep the art, and sell some of this land to renovate the dorms:
https://vitalizevalpo.com/property-overview/

Selling/repurposing these parcels are certainly in the works.  I took a look at Zillow and found all kinds of land for sale running from  20,000 an acre to 145,000 an acre.  Let's split the difference and say, on average, the land would be sold at 80,000 an acre.  That would raise 10,000,000.  We'd be half the way there!


I suspect that the university is looking at a variety of actions (including the sale of real estate) that create funds to support multiple capital improvements. They need to do more than just address dorms. In reality, it is "create a big pile of money from various sources to fund several projects". Saying that the sale of artwork is specifically for dorm renovations is a more understandable (albeit too simplistic) way of justifying the art sale. Selling the land does not get Valpo halfway there...instead selling the artwork probably gets Valpo a third of the way towards funding multiple projects.

vu72

Season Results: CBI/CIT: 2008, 2011, 2014  NIT: 2003,2012, 2016(Championship Game) 2017   NCAA: 1962,1966,1967,1969,1973,1996,1997,1998 (Sweet Sixteen),1999, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2013 and 2015

vu84v2

#260
Quote from: ValpoDiaspora on February 17, 2023, 05:59:33 AM
Oof, honestly "funding multiple projects" sounds even more depressing, either in the sense of "how many side-projects will men in suits pursue while students lose resources and programs?" or "how many other buildings are past the point of no return that they can't defer maintenance any longer?" Either way, sounds grim.

I think I am with CrusaderMoe in his discussion of positive windows of opportunity. In all the cases I can think of where a comprehensive uni broke out of tenuous situation to increase their profile and draw and financial stability, they did it by super-charging investment into particular academic programs or sports teams at the right time.

Anyways, I actually can't read it since paywalled, but it looks like the Post-Tribune did some kind of update on the campus protest:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/ct-ptb-vu-art-protest-st-0216-20230216-roo2u5hrcjdadjrgz3r4out4yu-story.html

I was specifically referring to academic buildings and facilities that directly serve students and are not competitive versus peer universities. The business building is certainly one such building. I know that nursing needed substantial expansion and enhancement, but seem to remember that there were donations to cover some or all of this. The basketball stadium is a different argument, since it does not directly serve many students. I do not believe that Valpo's board and administration are considering wasteful side-projects (though that question should always be asked).

I would also like to point out a disturbing point from the article you posted.

"The students trekked from the university's Center for the Arts to Padilla's office across campus at Heritage Hall, the oldest building on campus, which was also recently renovated. Sources have told The Post-Tribune three paintings are slated for sale: "Rust Red Hills" by O'Keeffe, "Mountain Landscape" by Frederick E. Church, and "The Silver Vale and the Golden Gate" by Childe Hassam. Padilla's assistant collected the letters and said he was in meetings."

This is not the proper way to manage change. While he issued a follow-up email, President Padilla needed to meet with those students when they arrived. By all accounts, the students were peaceful and exercising their rights. It is hard for me to think of any meeting that he could be in that would be more important than spending 15 minutes with those students - listening and stating the university's position (but no negotiating). If he was not in the building, he needed to setup a meeting with them that would occur as soon as possible.

usc4valpo

From a previous post Caterpillar is not leaving Peoria, just the corporate headquarters is leaving Deerfield. That being said, Bradley is going through similar issues as Valparaiso.

Valporainsnow

Quote from: usc4valpo on February 17, 2023, 09:09:15 AM
From a previous post Caterpillar is not leaving Peoria, just the corporate headquarters is leaving Deerfield. That being said, Bradley is going through similar issues as Valparaiso.

Longtime lurker and first time poster here. I also have some perspective as a VU alum who's a parent of a current Bradley student. I'm also quite familiar with the Peoria area through personal ties.

This is absolutely correct about Caterpillar and Peoria. Peoria didn't really lose anything more than the C-suite. While it's a blow to the city's prestige, the economic hit likely hasn't been all that significant. Cat still has a large presence in the area with thousands of employees. As far as I know, Cat is still a heavy hitter in local philanthropic efforts.

I'll disclaim my next thoughts by saying that I'm not in higher ed, and that my impressions are from general information I've found.

I agree that Bradley faces the same pressures as VU, but I don't think conditions at Bradley have been as challenging. Enrollment at Bradley has declined, but not seemingly to the extent VU has seen. Financially, Bradley seems to be in what the president of the university terms "OK". I'm comfortable with where things are at Bradley given the current environment facing higher ed, particularly private schools.

My student at Bradley is an engineering major and did briefly consider VU. Bradley opened a $100 million business and engineering convergence center (The BECC) in 2019. That's a draw for Bradley that is likely to VU's detriment since both schools seem to draw from a similar pool of students.

I can't post external links, but searching for Bradley President Stephen Standifird's 2022 State of the University address is worthwhile for anyone interested in seeing how one of VU's closest peers is faring.

crusader05

I believe Valpo reinstated some of the cuts that were put in place in salary as well but I could be wrong about that. Valpo's area seems to be "okay but needs to make adjustments" which is not fun for those being adjusted in faculty and staff and program but is also a history of small university. Heck we almost closed our nursing school and there are other programs I remember hearing about when I was there but were already gone, including speech pathology. Small schools just don't have the ability to maintain every program constantly if numbers ebb and flow

crusadermoe

The details on Bradley led me to peruse the Bradley U. website and get a sense of how they landed that huge $100 million commitment.  No luck on that front yet. 

But I did see on their Development Staff web page that Jason Petrovich is now Bradley's VP of Advancement. 

He was #2 at Valpo and normally that job is an heir apparent to the VP (Valpo VP LIsa Hollander is "retiring." Did he leave Valpo for greener pastures at Bradley? (more pay or just a stronger university)  Maybe the Valpo VP is in search process?

valpopal

Quote from: crusadermoe on February 18, 2023, 11:55:39 AM
He was #2 at Valpo and normally that job is an heir apparent to the VP (Valpo VP LIsa Hollander is "retiring." Did he leave Valpo for greener pastures at Bradley? (more pay or just a stronger university)  Maybe the Valpo VP is in search process?
Hollander's replacement is Marie Foster-Bruns, who led One Region, where Padilla is on the Board of Directors, though the announcement doesn't mention that fact.
https://nwindianabusiness.com/community/business-news-bits/valparaiso-university-hires-one-region-leader-for-vp-position/?v=7516fd43adaa

DejaVU

The "Covid cut" was 5% but only to the employees making more than 50K. However, when they reinstated the cut they just gave 5% increase across the board including to those who were not affected by the cut. That means those making under 50K got a net increase of 5% and those affected by the cut got actually less than what they earned before because the reinstatement 5% was applied to the reduced salary. In math terms, to be clear,
(0.95*x)*(1.05) is less than x.


I know the reasoning behind this cut-off of 50K but what people don't realize is that in the last decade or so there was hardly any standar raise and any modicum of raise was for those who earned merit ratings year after year (those faculty that did far more than what was expected of them). These people basically were disproportionally affected by this measures.  In other words, the winner of this pathetic game is the one who worked just enough to not get fired while the sucker was the one more senior and more devoted to the profession.


So the compensation policy at VU is worse than just not having enough money. It is also about these unfair practices that undermine the morale even further.  In any case, sooner or later they will get exactly what they pay for. You just can't make fine cuisine with McDonalds ingredients.

sfnmman

 " The details on Bradley led me to peruse the Bradley U. website and get a sense of how they landed that huge $100 million commitment.  No luck on that front yet."

Probably the reason you can't find reference to $100 million commitment is that the referenced building was $10 million, not $100 million. 

DejaVU

ValpoDiaspora: I agree with you on those making under 50K and do not envy their position by no means.  I just believe that there should be a way to impose austerity measures in such a way that avoids insulting a group. Those junior faculty making 50K will be senior one day and wonder what happened with their lives and what was it all good for? That's a very painful question to ask onself.

In the misery poker, you can always come with a better hand: I can give examples of someone who makes say 60K having it worse than someone making 50K due to personal things such as costly elderly care, child care etc...Going back to the cuts: Instead of drawing an arbitrary line and saying cut by 5% those making above 50K how about making a universal cut of 3% for everybody. SO the same austerity measure for all...I know, I know...those making under 50K can hardly have a room to cut any percent. Yet, austerity is austerity...Inflation, for example, makes a cut from everybody whether we like it or not...

Here's another one: how about hiring a new faculty person that makes MORE than a colleague who is associate professor, 10 years in the job, merit ratings year after year. That happened. Why? Because they could not hire otherwise in certain positions or specialties..So they hide behind the confidential aspects of salaries hoping that this won't be found. Except, people to find out...An administrator concerned with NOT insulting his employees would either raise the salary of the senior person to maintain some sort of a seniority scale or lower the expectations of the new hire and maybe look for someone of second best quality/expertise that can still do the job.

Once again: I can, grudgingly accept that there's no money...But to add insult to the injury is an unforced error. And it does affect the morale and the quality of instructions.

DejaVU

And another more general thing on compensation. I know for a fact that this was a problem for decades. It was always neglected, patched here and there with pitiful measures. For examples there were years when a satisfactory rating meant no raise and a merit rating meant maybe 1.5-2%. So this was allowed to fester to gargantuan proportions now when COVID crisis came on top of that to the point where now, across the board, salaries for faculty are on average 30% below the median of peers.  SO there is a gap of 30% just to reach that median

That makes it actually embarrassing to even be part of a hiring committee. So this brings me to the paintings sale. I am completely neutral in the matter as I have zero competence to judge the impact of parting with those paintings. However, the reasoning was: desperate times requires desperate measures. If renovating those dorms are so urgent how come the compensation never makes the case of a "desperate measure" approach? Why not sell a painting or two in order to urgently plug some of that gap, at least partially in order to inject some morale and belief that there is some light at the end of the tunnel. What does it need to happen for this problem to become critical?

There were several resignations in the middle of the year and students where left hanging. Some staff qualifies for food stamps. Do we have to wait for that to happen to faculty? Do faculty need to throw the textbooks to Padilla's office and say do something now or you go teach this and that?

It's just astonishing the lack of urgency on this vital issue. This festered for so long, nobody believes and grandiose promise that things will be better in 5-6 years. By that time the current administration will retire or fail upwards to a more prestigious position.

So, again, why not sell an asset  (painting or whatever) to implement an emergency compensation measure? I think it is because they are disconnected from reality on the ground

vu84v2

#270
Quote from: sfnmman on February 19, 2023, 09:01:33 AM
" The details on Bradley led me to peruse the Bradley U. website and get a sense of how they landed that huge $100 million commitment.  No luck on that front yet."

Probably the reason you can't find reference to $100 million commitment is that the referenced building was $10 million, not $100 million. 


In comparison, the money raised and used for the expansion of the engineering building at Valpo (interestingly, led by Donald Fites - former CEO of Caterpillar) was $13M and that money was spent from 2009 to 2011. There are many posts here that rightly talk about some of Valpo's facilities being outdated, but some are modern and the result of excellent fundraising and planning. Perhaps the difference is that the best plans may be driven by Deans and/or lead donors.

vu84v2

DejaVU raises excellent points regarding Valpo maintaining salaries that are competitive with the labor marketplace. I will add that competitive salaries for tenure track faculty vary wildly by discipline. Valpo might need to pay $130K for newly graduated PhD student in engineering or accounting (this is close to $200K at a school like Purdue or Indiana), while Valpo might only need to offer $65K for a new psychology PhD graduate. Until recently, market salaries for professional disciplines were probably increasing by 5-8% per year. Thus, the situation of needing to offer a newly graduated PhD more than what you pay a current tenured faculty member is very real at many universities. If we assume that Valpo, like any organization, need to hire and retain the right people - salaries will need to be addressed (for staff and faculty).

VU2014

#272
Quote from: DejaVU on February 19, 2023, 10:17:20 AM
And another more general thing on compensation. I know for a fact that this was a problem for decades. It was always neglected, patched here and there with pitiful measures. For examples there were years when a satisfactory rating meant no raise and a merit rating meant maybe 1.5-2%. So this was allowed to fester to gargantuan proportions now when COVID crisis came on top of that to the point where now, across the board, salaries for faculty are on average 30% below the median of peers.  SO there is a gap of 30% just to reach that median

That makes it actually embarrassing to even be part of a hiring committee. So this brings me to the paintings sale. I am completely neutral in the matter as I have zero competence to judge the impact of parting with those paintings. However, the reasoning was: desperate times requires desperate measures. If renovating those dorms are so urgent how come the compensation never makes the case of a "desperate measure" approach? Why not sell a painting or two in order to urgently plug some of that gap, at least partially in order to inject some morale and belief that there is some light at the end of the tunnel. What does it need to happen for this problem to become critical?

There were several resignations in the middle of the year and students where left hanging. Some staff qualifies for food stamps. Do we have to wait for that to happen to faculty? Do faculty need to throw the textbooks to Padilla's office and say do something now or you go teach this and that?

It's just astonishing the lack of urgency on this vital issue. This festered for so long, nobody believes and grandiose promise that things will be better in 5-6 years. By that time the current administration will retire or fail upwards to a more prestigious position.

So, again, why not sell an asset  (painting or whatever) to implement an emergency compensation measure? I think it is because they are disconnected from reality on the ground

Selling assets to boost faculty salaries is completely unsustainable. It may be fine for a few years, but the only sustainable way to boost salaries is to increase enrollment and increase class sizes. Selling assets to pay for renovations to freshman dorms to make the University more attractive to prospective students is a first step to possibly increasing tenured staffs salaries down the road.

DejaVU

Obviously everybody has a breaking point. But I am not here to discuss the personal circumstances that cause one to stay or leave. These things are always personal and far more complicated than they appear to someone else. And I am not enamored with VU.

My only point is that compensation should be an emergency issue  just like or more so than the dorms. I was not suggesting selling assets in perpetuity for salaries.  I was thinking of an emergency, one time measure NOW. That dorm may or may not bring revenue 5 years down the road (that's an eternity in today's world). If compensation is not seriously addressed in 1-2 years at most, you may end up with a great dorm but with a joke of a school and no ability to maintain the pretense. And those dorms will be empty again...

But hey, I would love nothing more than to be wrong on this. Until then I won't hold my breath...

David81

Quote from: ValpoDiaspora on February 18, 2023, 07:58:15 PM
I totally agree with you on the dumb McDonalds approach.

But I don't think it makes much sense to resent those who are making less.

In many cases, they were making under $50K not out of any lack of commitment to the profession, but just because they had the misfortune to either be a) young and recently hired into the tenure-track, and hence on the lower end of the scale; these were suddenly facing reductions to levels below the starting salaries for which they'd agreed to moved their families cross-country just a year or few earlier; or b) adjunct/lecturer faculty trying to stay afloat on $30/40K; some of them never had benefits like health insurance or retirement or funds for academic memberships to begin with, or did they? At any rate, even if they were contingent yet full-time employees making in the 30s and 40, that's hardly living high. Since there was no opportunity for merit raises at all in those couple years leading up to COVID, merit had never been in the equation. And if they were one of the newly hired/contingent faculty who lost their jobs entirely, then it was like a -105% cut, since the uni took -5% out of their last year of teaching.

As you say, the paycuts were pretty insulting and painful in a different way for senior faculty who'd taught heavy loads for 15 or 20 years and earned promotions to finally make it to 60K or something, only to get knocked back down into the 50s again after all that service. In that context, I can understand the emotional sting for the higher-income folk in the 50-60s to see the folk in the 20s-40s end up gaining 5% while their own salaries continued to stagnate... Or some of them took the voluntary -5% to try to save colleagues, and then got slapped with an additional forced -5%. So, if it makes you feel any better, it wasn't just hard work but also altruism that got punished.

Overall, I'm just not sure what gain there can be in different generations of faculty competing for the prize of who got screwed worse by mismanagement. Isn't this like the McD's burger patty person begrudge the fry chef?

Dear friends, forgive me for this tome. I found myself doing a bit of a deep dive into VU's archives to find some comparative info -- prompted by my desire to avoid working on an article that is due.

So.....Diaspora's post here was quite the eye-opener. I assumed that VU faculty salaries were low, but I didn't know they were this low.

Just how low are these salaries? Well, for some time in these exchanges I've been saying that the success of VU as an academic institution back in the day was built on the backs of a savagely underpaid faculty carrying punishing teaching loads. In fact, when I was a Torch newspaper staffer, the last piece I wrote before I hopped on a plane to spend my final semester at VU's Cambridge, England overseas study center reported on a comparative study of faculty salaries compared to other Lutheran-affiliated universities. And now, thanks to the online University archives, I was able to find that January 1981 article. For 1979-80, VU faculty salary averages by rank were as follows (I assume mean, not median, but as a young collegiate journalist, I did not get clarification):

Full professor ($25,600)
Associate professor ($21,300)
Assistant professor ($17,500)
Instructor ($13,200)

And btw, undergraduate tuition & fees, room & board, etc., were estimated at ~$5,300/year for that 79-80 academic year, a few hundred more for engineers.

Now, why am I dredging up the soggy past? In addition to feeding my inner nostalgia junkie (The Torch was a rich source of deep friendships that endure to this day), using a standard Bureau of Labor Standards cost of living adjustment calculator (https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm), here's how those average salaries would look today (as of August 2022) if they merely kept up with the Consumer Price Index (numbers rounded off at the hundreds):

Full professor ($102,700)
Associate professor ($85,500)
Assistant professor ($70,200)
Instructor ($53,000)

Based on Diaspora's post, it appears that VU's average faculty salaries come in at maybe 60-65% those amounts.

And btw, taking the 79-80 tuition & fees, room & board and applying the same calculator, you get $21,300 if VU's 22-23 sticker price merely kept up with the CPI. Instead, the VU sticker price for this year is $62,800.

In a bit of irony, it serves as a rejoinder of sorts to those who think that significant cuts to the Arts & Sciences would somehow be VU's financial salvation. Put simply, there's not a lot to cut here, even if you start eliminating meat & potatoes liberal arts departments that are part of virtually every full-fledged university and turn VU into a trade school that happens to award degrees.

I do get the economics of higher education today. But one reaches a point where, rather than making painful but perhaps necessary cuts, an institution starts racing to the bottom. And perhaps, when we look at these numbers over time, we should be asking ourselves just what the h**l is going on with the price of college today.

[I cannot upload the screenshots of the Torch article and the VU Bulletin page that I cited above, but email me at dyamada@suffolk.edu if you'd like to see them.]