11/25/11: Valpo at #3 Ohio State Game Thread

[agibson]

Oh well...the good news is a 40 point loss is no more a loss than a 1 point loss (minus rpi, pride, and reputation) it's all 1 in the L column

For RPI too, a loss is a loss.  But, pride, reputation, yeah, OK.

[swiftmutiny]

Ugly, ugly second half. With all of the missed opportunities this easily could have been a much closer game. I knew it was going to be very tough for us on the inside, but I didn't think that Van Wijk was going to be completely shut down. That along with the turnovers killed any chance we had at staying with them, because you can't hit the three forever.

Positives... Vucic was able to give some quality minutes and put up some points, even though he had several easy layups that should have gone in. If he can give quality minutes against Ohio State then he should be able to do the same against any other team we play this year to give Van Wijk some rest. Another was Harris, who demonstrated tonight that he can be a very dangerous shooter. I don't think Ohio State was expecting that from him coming off the bench.

[valpopal]

Obviously, after a decent first half, the second half was definitely a disappointment, to say the least. One could optimistically say, the glass was only half full.

Most of us figured OSU to score 80 points or so for the game, but nobody really expected Valpo to score less than 50. I hope the poor display by Kevin, who had difficulty on both ends of the floor, was due to his playing against Sullinger, a Player of the Year candidate, and not a sign of any physical problem returning. The lack of scoring also showed how important it is for the team to get to the free throw line this season.

In any case, I prefer to look at this night as the splash of cold water (from a half-full glass) to the face we might have needed after the three-game sweep a week ago. Perhaps this will convince the team of the need to re-focus as we go into the Butler game and look to the rest of the season. Also, as I have said before, I look at this team as being on a two-year projection, and every game this year will only prepare these players for the big year I expect from them next season.

[FWalum]

Frustration is an attitude killer.  I am not delusional enough to believe that we would have won this game but this was perhaps one of the top 5 worst officiated games that I have seen as a fan or a college coach.  I am not just talking about fouls, but several other blatantly bad calls were made.  The fact that we did not shoot a foul until under 2 minutes remaining in the game was a joke, and I don't want to hear that we were not driving to the basket because we were and were getting fouled but they were not called. This kind of frustration really wears on a team and it showed as the game wore on.  What a joke that we were called for a technical foul when Sullinger was well out of bounds preventing the inbounds pass. 

[vu72]

Can anybody make me a loan?  Remember, I'm the one who said "bet heavily" on the 22.5 point spread.  Nonetheless, the game showed how dominant OSU is on the inside, and they were unbelievable from the 3 in the second half.

Every bunny we missed was the result of Sullinger and their other very big guys.  We simply couldn't get position on the boards and I'm sure this will be a point of practice in the next week.

I did see some positives.  As noted by others Vucic played a very solid game and we are starting to see the all conference player that Harris can be.  Ryan played his normal full game and, as pointed out earlier, Kevin was the big question.  Obviously they had a game plan of limiting his touches and their guys on the perimeter were such great defenders that we had trouble taking advantage of their double teams down low.

I don't see a major mental beating, but rather a wake up call for a still young team that has played only a few games together.  Somehow I think that Fernandez and/or Capobianco would make this a different game--who knows.

And as for Bryce, how about his first T!!  Can't imagine he swore at the ref but the ref sure was quick with the call.  Bryce was obviously right.  Finally as for the foul shooting differential, I think we were hacked on several occasions, but overall I think it was just great D on their part...  On to Butler!

[valporun]

And as for Bryce, how about his first T!!  Can't imagine he swore at the ref but the ref sure was quick with the call.  Bryce was obviously right.

I'm can't imagine vu72 missed what the tech was really for, but it was a dumb call. First, Ryan can't get the ball in when the defender is manhandling him. Second, how do you not see a foot as huge as Sullinger's not in the red portion of the sidelines? Finally, why did we need to spend all of our timeouts so quickly?

[nkvu]

this was perhaps one of the top 5 worst officiated games that I have seen

Seems pretty much routine when we play at a big school.  They are extremely physical with us and seldom get called for it - we get called for every contact.  Happens every time.  No we probably wouldn't have won this game.  Ohio State is really good and would have won straight up.  We gave them lots of unforced turnovers and couldn't hit a shot in the second half.  They didn't need the help. 

[FWalum]

Finally as for the foul shooting differential, I think we were hacked on several occasions, but overall I think it was just great D on their part.

Here is what happens when you don't get calls... you start to rush and hurry to get off a clean shot which of course causes more misses. Come on, their guy is getting the call when, as the Ohio State announcers joked, he is tripping over his own feet and we did not get one call when driving to the basket? That is unacceptable and that crew should be taken to task.  I said that the Akron coach should have gotten a T in our game and I think it would have been better for Bryce to get a T much earlier in the second half.  Make them replay the bad calls about 3 times on the video screen and perhaps the crew gets the message.

[rlh]

Sometimes the other guys are just better than you

[justducky]

We're a 22.5 point dog according to this mornings USA Today.  Take the points and bet heavily!

What we saw last week was a group of underclassmen playing like seniors. If Edwards can come back tonight and contribute 20 minutes of solid controlled basketball then it is very difficult to argue with 72's conclusion. My best guess is OSU by 13 and a down to the wire finish could happen. So make the bet and cross your fingers.

Since I know that it will cheer some of you guys up, 72 and I are both now broke, homeless and will soon be living under a local bridge in adjacent cardboard boxes. I hope that none of you were foolish enough to assume that either of us knew anything at all about the game of basketball. We may try to sneak into a game soon so that we can rummage through the trash looking for half eaten boxes of popcorn. We should be easily recognized but if not just keep your nose-out for us.

[FWalum]

Sometimes the other guys are just better than you

Never said that they weren't, but as a former coach I get so frustrated watching games that are called this way knowing what is happening to the mindset of your team.

[StlVUFan]

Frustration is an attitude killer.  I am not delusional enough to believe that we would have won this game but this was perhaps one of the top 5 worst officiated games that I have seen as a fan or a college coach.  I am not just talking about fouls, but several other blatantly bad calls were made.  The fact that we did not shoot a foul until under 2 minutes remaining in the game was a joke, and I don't want to hear that we were not driving to the basket because we were and were getting fouled but they were not called. This kind of frustration really wears on a team and it showed as the game wore on.  What a joke that we were called for a technical foul when Sullinger was well out of bounds preventing the inbounds pass. 

Agree 100%.  Nobody thinks the refs cost us the game, but I think it's ridiculous that we have to lose in 5-on-8.  Isn't it enough to be outclassed by the other 5?  Is it really too much to ask to get an evenly called game -- more of a concerted effort at acknowledging and respecting that both teams play by the same rules?

Forget the loss, I had that chalked up going in -- in the sense that if OSU played their best they were going to win convincingly.  They got a bunch of lucky bounces too, and I bear them no malice for that.  It happens, and Valpo has benefited from lucky bounces just like everybody else has.

I just ask that fouls be called and non-fouls not be called without regard to which team is victim/beneficiary.  I'm not asking that they favor the visitors to try to even the odds for us.  If they're 5 are better than our 5, then we lose unless they take us for granted (which rarely happens for more than the first half).  We lose by 5, we lose by 30.  Either way, that's fair.

But I can't help feeling like a good 8-10 points of that deficit tonight was influenced by zebra favoritism and that shouldn't happen.  It shouldn't happen for us when we host a D-III team, and it shouldn't happen for OSU when they host us or anyone else for that matter.  I estimate there were 6-8 OSU fouls that were not called for reasons passing understanding.  One of them was then compounded by an end-line violation that wasn't called and led to a Tech for a timeout we didn't have.  I'd settle for saying Ryan should have bounced the ball off Sullinger's leg and out of bounds to get a re-rack or something, and that the Tech was appropriate because a rule is a rule.  But I can't help feeling that Sullinger should have had 5 fouls by then.  There was another one which resulted in an out-on-Valpo call.  I thought the change of possession was wrong but somebody pointed out that if nobody touched it after it rimmed out, then the call was right, and there's a decent chance that's what happened.

It's games like this that make me question the strategy of playing top 10 teams on their home court.  It's also games like this that have my mind immediately conjuring up the prostitution analogy.  Even if it's the "classy" kind, it's still hard to swallow.

I'm not saying it's over the top.  In fact, I'm not really saying it happens on purpose.  I kinda think it doesn't.  I don't chalk it up to some sort of conspiracy.  I chalk it up to laziness and possibly a small measure of disdain.

[okinawatyphoon]

One startling statistic: Ohio St scored as many points in the second half as we scored the whole game.

[bbtds]

Sometimes the other guys are just better than you

Never said that they weren't, but as a former coach I get so frustrated watching games that are called this way knowing what is happening to the mindset of your team.

Totally agree with you FWalum. Valpo didn't play well enough to win but they weren't even given a chance by the refs. Whoever reviews the game tapes of this game has got to see that they missed call after call on Ohio State fouls. My God, Valpo shot 2 free throws. This crew just blew the game and since Valpo fans and admins will only sound like whiners when they complain about it the refs can get away with it. If Ohio State had been hosed like that by the refs the crowd would have been extremely loud and boisterous and the calls would have started to even out. Since it was only Bryce complaining it was acceptable.

[valpo84]

I understand the point on the refs, and agree we were not getting calls. We need to fix our own house first, and we need to beat Butler. Now more important, what are we learning. 1. We have got to learn how to play the first 5 mins of 2d half against ranked teams. 18-2 run for OSU in first 5-8 mins v OSU. Scoreless for 8 plus mins v AZ. Very good teams adjust and we are not rising our level of play. 2. As good as KVW has been. He showed his weaknesses today. Patience. Holding the ball so smurfs can get it. Not going stronger to hole to make the refs call. 3. Vucic is getting better and contributing. He should be able to give good minutes against Butler's Smith and UWGB's big. Plus he runs the pick and roll pretty well. 4. Harris can flat out shoot. 5. Bogan has got to be more consistent, but he has some serious range. 6. We have to stop stupid turnovers and fouls, especially Buggs. We need him on the floor.

[StlVUFan]

All points well taken, 84.  With all that was said by me, I can still agree that it is possible to control your own reaction to the obstacles that take place in a game.  I've been venting as a fan, and if I were a coach, I'd probably find quiet ways to impress these points on whoever would listen, but I'd want my players to control what they can control and not let frustration get the better of them.

I think we should be able to learn from this game and use that to get better.  I certainly hope Matt and Kevin can learn some valuable lessons from this game.

[wh]

OSU starters Sullinger, Craft and Buford all play 37 minutes in a 30+ point blowout.   How would you like to be a sub on that team?

[bbtds]

OSU starters Sullinger, Craft and Buford all play 37 minutes in a 30+ point blowout.   How would you like to be a sub on that team?

And that's the reason a player who is not a starter for a Big Six school should go to a mid-major school and start and not sit on the bench at the Big Six school. I'm sure Will Bogan came to that realization and transferred.

[Valpo89]

Come on guys, especially FWAlum. Officiating had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome last night. You want to sound like Akron fans?

[VUfan]

move on... Ohio State... Who? 

[valpo04]

Come on guys, especially FWAlum. Officiating had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome last night. You want to sound like Akron fans?

Pretty sure no one here has made the argument that we would have won if the officials were better. In fact, the person you specifically call out said:

I am not delusional enough to believe that we would have won this game but this was perhaps one of the top 5 worst officiated games that I have seen as a fan or a college coach.

If you don't think the officiating was bad last night no matter the outcome, I'm not sure what game you were watching.

[lowposter]

Prettys good experience last night.  Not too many positives, but let's face it, OSU has athletes at every position.  Note the difference - when OSU had open looks, they buried them.  Our 3 point shooters, outside of Harris are not that good.

Officiating is officiating.  I was very frustrated early in the 2H but came to the realization these officials are there for a purpose.  Let the blood flow.  A mid major will not receive calls once the momentum shifts on the road.  So, dont let the momentum shift.  Those are the lessons learned from the Arizona and OSU games.  Teams must fight thru these moments on the road.

Vucic is not too far off from making contributions.  His overall footwork is not bad for a 7 footer, but his footwork near the basket needs work.  lots of work.  I think he will be able to make contributions as the season progresses, but realize he will have his moments...both positive and negetive.

[FWalum]

I understand the point on the refs, and agree we were not getting calls. We need to fix our own house first, and we need to beat Butler. Now more important, what are we learning. 1. We have got to learn how to play the first 5 mins of 2d half against ranked teams. 18-2 run for OSU in first 5-8 mins v OSU. Scoreless for 8 plus mins v AZ. Very good teams adjust and we are not rising our level of play. 2. As good as KVW has been. He showed his weaknesses today. Patience. Holding the ball so smurfs can get it. Not going stronger to hole to make the refs call. 3. Vucic is getting better and contributing. He should be able to give good minutes against Butler's Smith and UWGB's big. Plus he runs the pick and roll pretty well. 4. Harris can flat out shoot. 5. Bogan has got to be more consistent, but he has some serious range. 6. We have to stop stupid turnovers and fouls, especially Buggs. We need him on the floor.

Come on guys, especially FWAlum. Officiating had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome last night. You want to sound like Akron fans?

Never said it would have changed the outcome.  I just don't like seeing lazy refs get paid for not doing their job. Been on both sides of that coin and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth either way. I sympathized with the Akron coach but the crew in that game was not nearly as bad as this crew.

Now that I have cooled down a bit it is time for a little analysis. I thought that Ohio State was able to push our offense way too far out onto the floor.  If you are running a lot a back cuts and shooting the 3 very well this is kind of ok, but it seemed to have Kevin and others way too far from the basket requiring that extra couple of dribbles or an extra move that allows the defense time to react and get that strip or better defensive position.  We became very indecisive in the second half causing just terrible passes that really were not a result of defensive pressure just a pass made too late.  Valpo84 is right about Kevin and his low ball position. This was magnified by his being further from the basket than he had been in the previous games allowing Craft to strip the ball several times (not always cleanly). Sullinger was also not allowing him to progress to the basket (using proper technique) as quickly as he had in previous games.

Now what does everyone think about Vucic? I am waiting to read some crow eating from a few of our posters that would have NEVER thought he could have played reasonably well for 16 minutes against the #3 team in the country.  He still has a ways to go to be a really effective contributor but I like the direction things are moving. You can tell he is putting in some hard work. Last night can do nothing but help his confidence.

Jay Harris grew up a little last night. Very good effort in the first half!

I was afraid that Broekhoff, when faced with being one of the defensive focal points, would disappear in games.  He may not have had a great scoring night but he really did a good job on the boards.  I think his rebounding has improved even from last years fairly high level.

Buggs is as quick as anybody on any team we have played.  His play has improved from last year, but he still needs to make better decisions and show more control in these big games.

I think that Bryce has shown that we can and have made adjustments in every game other than the games against Arizona and Ohio State.  Do we have another gear in us like these teams?  If we don't, we need to find one.

I won't comment anymore on the officiating in the game.  It is best forgotten and placed in perspective. Time to concentrate on Butler.

[valpotx]

I have been saying all along that Vucic will be able to contribute solid minutes for us, as anyone should be able to the see the improvements he has made since his 1st and 2nd years.  My memory of him his first year when he redshirted was during the Madness celebration, and this big/skinny 7'0" guy trying to dance very uncoordinated.  Last year, he was the guy that had no clue when he was put into a game.  Now, he still probably can't dance, but his coordination seems much better, and he actually seems to understand the flow of the game.  He understands that he has height, and that height should allow him to shoot more when he gets the ball.  Stop hating on a big man that doesn't come in immediately showing he has 'game,' and realize any 7'0" guy we ever get from now on will be a project.  The days of us getting a Raitis Grafs who instantly dominates are over now that all teams go overseas.

[milanmiracle]

OSU starters Sullinger, Craft and Buford all play 37 minutes in a 30+ point blowout.   How would you like to be a sub on that team?

And that's the reason a player who is not a starter for a Big Six school should go to a mid-major school and start and not sit on the bench at the Big Six school. I'm sure Will Bogan came to that realization and transferred.

I don't know there's two sides to this coin. It's nice to be a part of a winner on a high level even if you don't see the floor much. Going to the Final 4 and competing for a national title can be just as rewarding as playing for a mid major and sitting home during the NCAA's every year.