Aces at the ARC 1/28 6 pm

[tiny707]

Valpopal always backing up with facts versus broad statements. Love it.

[valpotx]

While we all wish things were moving in a better direction, take heart!  Things in other parts of the basketball world are not all roses either...that Drew kid, you know, the great coach formerly ours, had his team lose to Tarleton State(?) by 18 points and are now fully ensconced in the middle of the pack in the WAC, a conferenced ranked two spots worse than the Valley by Sagarin.  Stuff happens!  It's college basketball.

Not so fast there, 72. That Drew kid's team is currently ranked 119 in the NET ratings, 169 spots ahead of Valpo's 288. The Tarleton State team you disparage is also ranked more than 100 places ahead of VU at 173. Plus, the WAC conference is currently ranked in 11th place in the conference NET ratings, while the MVC is ranked in 15th place. In fact, 12 teams in the WAC have higher NET ratings than Valpo. Finally, GCU might be in the middle of their conference standings, but they are only 2 games out of first place.

Tarleton State is where Aggies go when they can't get into the main Texas A&M campus .  There are now 4 Texas A&M programs in D-1: Texas A&M, Texas A&M - Corpus Christi, Tarleton State, and Texas A&M - Commerce

[David81]

To wit, Loyola Chicago, with their beautiful practice facility overlooking Lake Michigan, are 1-7 and now sit in last place in a conference just slightly better than our Valley.

The Loyola Chicago situation illustrates that leveraging a storybook season into sustained excellence is possible but never easy. The year after their 2018 Final 4 run, Loyola lost in the first round of the NIT. The next year, they lost to Valpo in the MVC quarterfinals, and then COVID hit, but it's fair to assume that an NIT bid would've awaited them. However, they reached the Sweet Sixteen in 2021, and again made the NCAA tourney last year (opening round loss to Ohio State). And this season they're struggling after losing a ton of seniors.

In other words, Loyola's post-Final 4 record is looking like a slightly elevated version of VU's post-Sweet 16 record. And FWIW, Loyola's pre-Final 4 record looks remarkably similar to VU's pre-Sweet 16 record as well. (Check it all out here: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/loyola-il/2023.html)

Whether this means anything to Valpo today, I'm not sure, because the NCAA tourney looks a gazillion miles away. But it does show that mid majors whose names aren't Gonzaga can still be relevant in the current NCAA environment.

[usc4valpo]

St. Peters's

[wh]

To wit, Loyola Chicago, with their beautiful practice facility overlooking Lake Michigan, are 1-7 and now sit in last place in a conference just slightly better than our Valley.

The Loyola Chicago situation illustrates that leveraging a storybook season into sustained excellence is possible but never easy. The year after their 2018 Final 4 run, Loyola lost in the first round of the NIT. The next year, they lost to Valpo in the MVC quarterfinals, and then COVID hit, but it's fair to assume that an NIT bid would've awaited them. However, they reached the Sweet Sixteen in 2021, and again made the NCAA tourney last year (opening round loss to Ohio State). And this season they're struggling after losing a ton of seniors.

In other words, Loyola's post-Final 4 record is looking like a slightly elevated version of VU's post-Sweet 16 record. And FWIW, Loyola's pre-Final 4 record looks remarkably similar to VU's pre-Sweet 16 record as well. (Check it all out here: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/loyola-il/2023.html)

Whether this means anything to Valpo today, I'm not sure, because the NCAA tourney looks a gazillion miles away. But it does show that mid majors whose names aren't Gonzaga can still be relevant in the current NCAA environment.

Valpo and Loyola are 2 of an untold number of D-1 programs that have experienced wild swings in their degree of success over time. In it's 45-year D-1 history Valpo has gone from bad, to good, to great, to good, and now bad again. At some point the program will pick up steam and head north again. It's practically guaranteed. Knowing that doesn't make where we're at presently any less painful, but I do think that history clearly says that Valpo needs to stay the course. The last thing the administration should do is make a kneejeck decision to move to a lower conference or go D-3, as some have suggested. We will pull out of this tail spin. It may be 5 years from now, 10 years from now, or whenever, but it will happen. If we don't benefit from it, the next generation of Valpo fans will.

[valpo64]

Well said, wh.  It also appears that Butler is a little over its head in the Big East.  Even though they had some terrific clubs and a few real good years, since then they have been very mediocre.  And now they still suffer after going back to Thad Motta.  One of the reasons he left OSU was he didn't particularly enjoy the recruiting game any longer as in the past.  We'll see how their fan base reacts after this season.

[usc4valpo]

wh, 64 - please note that Butler and Loyola have had decisively better success than Valpo in the past 50 years. wh, I guess I agree to stay the course, but are you also inferring that a coaching change is not required. I hope not.

[David81]

St. Peters's

usc4valpo, given that St. Peter's is now sitting at 9-12 after its head coach left and most of its top players entered the transfer portal soon after their Cinderella run ended last spring, I'm not sure if that's a "for" or "against" vote for the promise of mid majors to be relevant.   

[usc4valpo]

I get it, but it was an incredible run and they beat mighty Purdue where their coach took a nap instead of adjusting their defense.

how about SFA?

[Just Sayin]

Well said, wh.  It also appears that Butler is a little over its head in the Big East.  Even though they had some terrific clubs and a few real good years, since then they have been very mediocre.  And now they still suffer after going back to Thad Motta.  One of the reasons he left OSU was he didn't particularly enjoy the recruiting game any longer as in the past.  We'll see how their fan base reacts after this season.

Verbal Commits: Butler 2024
Two stars: 1
Three stars: 1
Four stars: 1
https://www.verbalcommits.com/schools/butler


Verbal Commits: Valpo 2024
Two Stars: 5
Three stars: 0
Four stars: 0
https://www.verbalcommits.com/schools/valparaiso

https://twitter.com/ButlerMBB/status/1619812085457911808

[AB]

What is your definition of success? If you take Gonzaga they have stayed in an average conference and compiled wins. Would they be a more successful team in the Mountain West, Pac 10? A few early March Madness duds, but overall sustained success. 20 plus wins, S 16's, final fours. Or is success, the Davidson's, Iona, Nevada, VCU, SFA, Richmond, St. Bon, Dayton, San Diego State, Wofford, St. Marys. I am on the Fence with Butler, Loyola and a handful of MAC teams to have sustained success beyond 5, 6 years. St. Peters, George Mason outlier. I think success has more to do the with the team than the conference. Beating a dead horse, but Valpo defeated Drake by 20, Murray by 36 points (neutral), @Murray, MSU 4 times (3 blowouts), Indiana State 2 x's while in the Horizon. Only blemish 1 loss at Evansville. 9-1 versus MVC the 5 or 6 years in the Horizon before the switch.

[usc4valpo]

Ok, but in the words of Janet Jackson, what have you done for me lately? The sweet 16 was 25 years ago, and Valpo hasn't won a tournament game since then.

[historyman]

Well said, wh.  It also appears that Butler is a little over its head in the Big East.  Even though they had some terrific clubs and a few real good years, since then they have been very mediocre.  And now they still suffer after going back to Thad Motta.  One of the reasons he left OSU was he didn't particularly enjoy the recruiting game any longer as in the past.  We'll see how their fan base reacts after this season.

Thad Matta - former Ohio State head coach, IU Asst AD, former & current Butler head coach, former Xavier head coach

Dick Motta - former Chicago Bulls, Dallas Mavericks, Sacramento Kings, Washington Bullets, Denver Nuggets head coach, former Weber State head coach

[crusader05]

I still think Gonzaga, generally, is not a path that is able to be replicated or many others would have done it. The fact that they are still the go-to is a tell. However, I do think one thing they did right is they stayed put. Both Loyola and Butler probably jumped conferences too quick vs staying where they would and establishing themselves. It's one thing to take out people from an upper conference on occasion or even regularly and it's another to be in that conference playing against them nightly when the coaches are actually preparing for you.

I think Valpo should not move conferences at all and I think that we are in a downturn but much like WH I don't believe it's forever. There are always gong to be other schools to point at who are doing something "better" in any given moment and say "why not us" but again, if it all was so replicable it would happen more often and with more consistency. Also, I think it's good to remember that no matter how big of a conference you're in, no one likes being the bottom of the barrel. Even if you're stadium is packed or your opponents are quality or you get to beat up on teams in pre-conference.

[usc4valpo]

Questions and comments:

1. Is going to a Valpo basketball game a good entertaining experience these days? Many schools have really kicked up the enthusiasm. What is Valpo currently doing for that?

2. Valpo should stay in the MVC. Valpo needs to make a change to be successful in the MVC and not just assume it is a matter of time.

3. Valpo needs to quit being conservative and frugal on their decision making and do what's right for success in the basketball program, if that is truly an aspiration or objective which I am truly uncertain of.

[VALPO LI]

Questions and comments:

1. Is going to a Valpo basketball game a good entertaining experience these days? Many schools have really kicked up the enthusiasm. What is Valpo currently doing for that?

2. Valpo should stay in the MVC. Valpo needs to make a change to be successful in the MVC and not just assume it is a matter of time.

3. Valpo needs to quit being conservative and frugal on their decision making and do what's right for success in the basketball program, if that is truly an aspiration or objective which I am truly uncertain of.

Funny you brought this up.  Just caught up on some casual reading and stumbled on this....

https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2023/01/31/missouri-state-basketball-experience-wyatt-wheeler-attendance-column-kyle-moats-dana-ford-clif-smart/69830114007/

Perhaps the fans perception of a sinking feeling at the ARC with Pups who can't see, a band that barely shows and a team that's not great isn't just felt at Valpo.....
But is the University trying??? Last week I noticed the student section was on their feet for almost the entire game!  Something I have not noticed in quite some time.  Attendance numbers were slightly higher and now this.....

https://www.valpoathletics.com/mbasketball/news/2022-23/21812/valpo-to-welcome-pacers-power-pack-on-feb-4/

The late 90's early 00's and mid teens were great times to be Crusader fan's!!!  I truly hope the University can get back there again real soon!

[valpo95]

Thanks for sharing the well-written article on Missouri State.

One quote jumped out at me: "There was hardly any reason to stay, outside of school pride, but that was hard to come by during a mediocre performance that still eked out a win."

The ARC was rocking when the team was winning. With a few exceptions, the Drew-coached teams always showed energy, hustle and exhibited good basketball IQ. You could always count on a good set play coming out of a break - it may not be successful or perhaps was taken away by the opposition, yet it was fun to watch. Beyond that, in the "glory years" there was a sense that the team could come back in any game in the ARC, and in some years they almost went undefeated at home.

From a distance, the malaise at Missouri State (and seemingly at Valpo) is that there have been too many mediocre performances, both in wins and the now-frequent losses. Keep winning, playing good basketball, and much of the game day atmosphere will improve.

[usc4valpo]

excellent response and many thanks! good to see Valpo trying to boost the basketball atmosphere

[valpo64]

  Great article on the Missouri State situation.  Our solution is quite simple although hard to produce...WINNING SOLVES MOST EVERYTHING.    We surely are not alone with our b-ball problems.  I heard the other night that Fordham, I think they are in the A-10 or A-Sun(?), ,has only reached a double bye level of their post-season tourney 5 times in their 23 year history of being in the League. And we think we have problems.  Also, it would be interesting to see what some of us would comment if our situation was like Evansville's demise.  And its hard to believe that they lead the MVC in home attendance this year, and they are usually at or near the top every year.

[JD24]

Great article on the Missouri State situation.  Our solution is quite simple although hard to produce...WINNING SOLVES MOST EVERYTHING.    We surely are not alone with our b-ball problems.  I heard the other night that Fordham, I think they are in the A-10 or A-Sun(?), ,has only reached a double bye level of their post-season tourney 5 times in their 23 year history of being in the League. And we think we have problems.  Also, it would be interesting to see what some of us would comment if our situation was like Evansville's demise.  And its hard to believe that they lead the MVC in home attendance this year, and they are usually at or near the top every year.

Fordham is in the A10 and having their first pretty good year in about 30 years.

[VULB#62]

I think that the last good program there was when Digger Phelps was there before he moved to Notre Dame.

[JD24]

I think that the last good program there was when Digger Phelps was there before he moved to Notre Dame.

Early 90's with Nick Macarchuk had some good teams.