Grand Canyon in trouble (again!)

[vu72]

Apparently GCU has once again (shocking I know) misrepresented the cost of their programs and degree.  I know we've had some previous discussions regarding the academic quality of GCU degrees and wasn't sure where to post this.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/politics/biden-grand-canyon-university-tuition/index.html

[valpopal]

Apparently GCU has once again (shocking I know) misrepresented the cost of their programs and degree.  I know we've had some previous discussions regarding the academic quality of GCU degrees and wasn't sure where to post this.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/politics/biden-grand-canyon-university-tuition/index.html

I have read through the extensive GCU statement on this issue. As someone who has attained a PhD as a student and taught graduate courses as a faculty member, I have to say my initial reaction would be to side with the university. The GCU statement seems clear and comprehensive in its refutation of the Department of Education's accusations.
https://news.gcu.edu/press-releases/government-agencies-unjustly-targeting-gcu/

[wh]

Apparently GCU has once again (shocking I know) misrepresented the cost of their programs and degree.  I know we've had some previous discussions regarding the academic quality of GCU degrees and wasn't sure where to post this.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/politics/biden-grand-canyon-university-tuition/index.html

I have read through the extensive GCU statement on this issue. As someone who has attained a PhD as a student and taught graduate courses as a faculty member, I have to say my initial reaction would be to side with the university. The GCU statement seems clear and comprehensive in its refutation of the Department of Education's accusations.
https://news.gcu.edu/press-releases/government-agencies-unjustly-targeting-gcu/

I have been closely following this, as well. IMO this is a politically motivated witch hunt that will ultimately be settled by the SCOTUS in favor of the university.

[David81]

I do see why GCU is attracting interest from federal regulators. The fine is for alleged misrepresentation of their doctoral program expenses, a favorite federal target for for-profit universities. Under "GCU ADDRESSING REAL ISSUES OF HIGHER EDUCATION," one sees GCU mounting its defense in part by pointing out how it has kept costs and student debt service down at its residential campus.

However, reading between the lines, it's a pretty fair bet that the 92,000 online students are subsidizing the 26,000 residential students. Non-profit and state universities are not immune to more flush academic units subsidizing the needier academic units (at many schools, law schools serve this role). But this may be occurring to an extreme degree at GCU, and the Ed Dept may regard GCU's online division as operating essentially as a proprietary institution set up to fund the undergraduate residential schools.

On the other hand, I'd like to see if doctoral continuation fees of $10k or so are normal in doctoral programs, as a $37.7m fine seems pretty huge to me.

[usc4valpo]

Sounds like a total witch-hunt. I am sure far worse situations occur at other schools.

[crusadermoe]

The central tenet of contract law is "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware.) If you exempt buyers from payments you create a moral hazard to the tax payer or you charge the actual risk cost of the market.

This all adds up to a screaming irony.  PhD students are adults, not 18-year-olds. They signPed it they pay it.   If that is too tough on a PhD then god knows we don't need more of ones who cry about it or don't get it.

[vu84v2]

This is from Grand Canyon's website on its business programs:

Grand Canyon University has been accredited by the Higher Learning Commission (HLC) since 1968. Additionally, many of our business degrees have attained elite accreditation from the Accreditation Council for Business Schools & Programs (ACBSP)

The problem with this is that the top accreditation board for business schools is AACSB, which is the accrediting body for Valpo, Purdue, Indiana, etc. - any good or better business school. Companies will definitely consider degrees from ACBSP schools as being vastly inferior (look at the list of schools accredited by ACBSP) - despite GCU's claim that they have attained "elite" accreditation for many other their business degrees.

Just one of many many ways in which GCU misrepresents itself...it is part of their culture.

[vu84v2]

Quick clarification - a PhD program is a type of doctorate program, but the terms cannot be interchanged. A PhD program teaches the student how to do research, while most or all other doctorate programs have little or no development in research. You cannot get a tenure-track faculty position without a PhD.

[crusadermoe]

Thanks for underscoring the PhD as a research degree.   

Not to be snide, but shouldn't a potential research degree applicant be required to do his own due diligence on see that "elite" is a glossy sales term that overstates the caliber of the degree.  Learning the accreditation levels seems simpler than doing a dissertation at the intensity of research a PhD would require. 

It seems like we are turning out a surplus of naive students who lack common sense.  GCU PhDs won't build my bridges or operate on my heart so just let the market punish the buyer for not sorting through the hype. 

[vu84v2]

I agree that someone considering a PhD needs to understand the reputation of universities and job prospects from each PhD granting university (as well as the pay and job prospects in their field).

To my knowledge, GCU has no PhD programs. There are likely two reasons for this: 1. No university or firm/research center (mainly in sciences and engineering) would hire someone who was 'taught' to do research at GCU. Accreditation is a big part of this, as is the reputation of GCU. 2. Universities pay students to get PhDs. There is no tuition (and most classes are very small since a PhD program is far more like an apprenticeship) and a modest stipend to cover living expenses while students are completing their PhDs. This would not be consistent with GCU's "profit regardless of the quality of education or job placement" model.

I would rephrase your statement to "GCU graduates won't build my bridges or operate on my heart". Nor will they fill a lot of other professional positions, though I am sure that GCU's administration will try to show prospective students that (one day) they will.

[David81]

Some of these posts apparently assume a political or politicized motivation, but that doesn't take into account actions that the federal regulators have taken against other universities, including those that have a social justice orientation.

For example, DOE has fined the Union Institute & University, a pioneering flexible/distance learning non-profit university with fewer than 1,000 students located in Ohio, $4.3 million for financial irregularities involving $750K in student loan monies. There's no way this school, with its minuscule endowment, can pay off that kind of fine. Union embraces a left/DEI point of view. Unfortunately, it apparently is also being badly managed under its current leadership.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2023/11/27/education-dept-cuts-federal-funds-union-institute#:~:text=The%20department%20also%20is%20fining,department%20wrote%20in%20a%20Nov.

[crusadermoe]

Hi David81.  You are the most knowledgable guy on the board along with a few other professors. And the political side sounds fair.  So I defer.  But "misuse of federal funds" sounds a bit different and a wider net on the surface than GCU's exaggeration of its product and not spelling a contract to adults. Maybe more is being alleged against GCU practices and I don't know.   

My impression is that the bigger picture with the GCU controversies is that the state of Arizona granted them a return to non-profit status after they pocketed income as a for-profit, getting their cake and able to eat it too. On the tax side of that issue Arizona was willing to forfeit that tax revenue. But Uncle Same wants their cut.  That non-profit issue impact on Federal taxes is a reasonable debate in the courts. I think the cynical aspect is wondering if GCU is now targeted for avoiding Fed taxes.   

[Just Sayin]

Government agencies unjustly targeting GCU

https://news.gcu.edu/press-releases/government-agencies-unjustly-targeting-gcu/

Now, for political or ideological reasons we don't understand, some in our federal government want to undermine those efforts. While we have taken the high road and continuously worked cooperatively and professionally with these individuals over the past five years, given their clear motivations and recent actions, we can no longer stay silent and allow their coordinated efforts to impugn the reputation of this university and the many faculty and staff who go above and beyond to ensure we provide the best possible service to our students.

This looks like a frivolous lawsuit to me from a hostile liberal administration hell bent on tarnishing the good reputation of a legitimate conservative Christian College. The article linked above refutes each and every frivolous charge which should be rejected by a court of appeals. Another example of an administration weaponizing various government agencies against its political and ideological opponents. This has no place in a legitimate government. This is the stuff of autocrats and tyrants.

[vu84v2]

Government agencies unjustly targeting GCU

https://news.gcu.edu/press-releases/government-agencies-unjustly-targeting-gcu/

Now, for political or ideological reasons we don't understand, some in our federal government want to undermine those efforts. While we have taken the high road and continuously worked cooperatively and professionally with these individuals over the past five years, given their clear motivations and recent actions, we can no longer stay silent and allow their coordinated efforts to impugn the reputation of this university and the many faculty and staff who go above and beyond to ensure we provide the best possible service to our students.

This looks like a frivolous lawsuit to me from a hostile liberal administration hell bent on tarnishing the good reputation of a legitimate conservative Christian College. The article linked above refutes each and every frivolous charge which should be rejected by a court of appeals. Another example of an administration weaponizing various government agencies against its political and ideological opponents. This has no place in a legitimate government. This is the stuff of autocrats and tyrants.

The Dept. of Education in the U.S. Government previously rejected Grand Canyon's application for non-profit status because of the shady (to say the least) linkage between GCE (the publicly traded part of Grand Canyon) and GCU (the university). Funny thing - this was in 2019 and the federal government's judgement against GCU was made by a Republican administration (which GCU referred to as being arbitrary and capricious). I do not really have any opinion on the most recent fines imposed by the U.S. government, but GCU (and GCE) overall are deeply fraudulent in their business model.

[David81]

Hi David81.  You are the most knowledgable guy on the board along with a few other professors. And the political side sounds fair.  So I defer.  But "misuse of federal funds" sounds a bit different and a wider net on the surface than GCU's exaggeration of its product and not spelling a contract to adults. Maybe more is being alleged against GCU practices and I don't know.   

My impression is that the bigger picture with the GCU controversies is that the state of Arizona granted them a return to non-profit status after they pocketed income as a for-profit, getting their cake and able to eat it too. On the tax side of that issue Arizona was willing to forfeit that tax revenue. But Uncle Same wants their cut.  That non-profit issue impact on Federal taxes is a reasonable debate in the courts. I think the cynical aspect is wondering if GCU is now targeted for avoiding Fed taxes.   

Crusadermoe, thanks much, but you're giving me too much credit on a matter where I'm trying to speculate and read between the lines like everyone else. I think the tax thing you've discussed could well be in play, too.

I was looking at my previous comments above and felt like I wasn't explaining myself all that well, so here goes again: I think one reason why GCU is getting all this love from the feds is that while they appear to run their undergraduate residential operation like a pretty solid, private non-profit university, their online graduate division still has the look & feel of a for-profit university. And that's not a look & feel that anyone wants to have these days given the unsavory record of so many for-profit schools.

That somewhat yucky look is why I've been almost knee-jerk against VU looking to expand its revenue bases by trying to create a huge online operation like GCU and Liberty. It has a cheesy optic to it.