Recruiting

[EddieCabot]

The former.

I can't ever tell if EddieCabot is a Butler fan mocking us, or a Valpo fan who sees everything through 150% Valpo-colored glasses

The former.


For the prosecution:

   
• commenting primarily on threads relevant to Butler (eg move to A-10, transfers vs HS recruits)
• refers to Valpo in second person ("You've won a conference championship, made an NIT appearance, retained your coach, have excellent facilities and have surpassed Butler in athletics excellence")
• Refers to Butler in first person ("Not sure if we'll be around, but maybe in a few years when all your seniors and juniors are gone, Butler might be able to compete again.  I guess we'll see."
• Finally his posting stats (just .083 per day, roughly Butler's team FG% last year)

Nice research, but I've never hidden that I'm a Butler fan who also has an interest in Valpo.  As for my comments, I'm not the only person who thinks that Valpo has had talent ... vu72 has claimed for years that Valpo's players (individually, at least) are more talented than the guys Butler has had. 

As a Butler fan, I've also seen first hand how good Valpo can be when they play with focus and purpose.  It's hard to believe that the Valpo team beating/nearly beating Butler time and time again is the same team that drops games to the likes of IPFW, IUPUI and Toledo.  If Bryce can get them to play consistently at a high level, I don't know why you guys wouldn't expect big things from them.  Having so many experienced guys should help in that regard also, IMO.

[StlVUFan]

If I'm not mistaken, he even uses the same handle on both boards.

I took it as straight shooting, myself, FWIW.

[valpopal]

Our pick up of Rossi is twice as nice since he doesn't go to Loyola, a league competitor whose message board fans had been counting on him being a Rambler.

[walldozer]

Our pick up of Rossi is twice as nice since he doesn't go to Loyola, a league competitor whose message board fans had been counting on him being a Rambler.

This ^ 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/sports/colleges/12271760-452/lazerus-revolving-door-of-transfers-not-fun-for-hoops-fans.html

Not sure whether to post this under the "Recruiting" thread or the "Transfers" thread--and that's kind of the point of this column by Mark Lazerus.

I think he has a lot of good points, namely:

• Having as many transfers as this is off-putting to fans.
• Fans are more attached to playersthe more time they spend here (so Tonagel > Mo Kone, just as Jim Ford > John Becher).  His description of Senior Night conveys this point excellently.

But also:

• Older players are usually better players--both more mature and more polished.
• Everyone is doing it.  At least almost all the mid-majors.
• But finally, it works--we end up with better players than otherwise.

As this indicates, I also have mixed feelings about it--I think it's too bad when it doesn't work out, and it's great when it does.  That's life:
longer relationships > shorter relationships
but
better relationships > longer relationships

[valpopal]

The addition of transfers at Valpo is not new nor is it something of concern. Let's remember that the beginning of the turnaround of the Valpo basketball program into one with a winning tradition began with the addition of two transfers: Casey Schmidt and David Redmon.

[vu72]

I just added a comment on his site which says that transfers can also be popular as was the case with Cory Johnson, one of the most popular players with the fans and students in some time.  He was only playing for us two years.  Success brings following and player fans.  Two years is long enough to get very popular.  The new guys will be a big part of our current and future success. 

[crusaderboy]

Dwayne Toatley was another EXTREMELY popular transfer player.

[crusaderboy]

And Anthony Allison.

[crusaderboy]

And my all-time fave, Chris Artis.

[crusaderboy]

And on and on.
This is much ado about nothing. This is the way it is in D-I hoops today.
I am sure many on here can remember when freshmen weren't even allowed to play.

[valpotx]

I didn't know Toatley was a transfer, but then again, I also didn't know he was a walk-on when I first started at Valpo

[vu72]

Toatley transferred "up" to play with his good bud from Minneapolis, Jared Nuness.  Dwane started out at Minnesota Duluth, a D2.

[wh]

I think I understand where Mark's coming from.  Can you imagine how difficult it's going to be to find a parking spot when we start selling out the ARC.  Darn these talented transfers anyway!

[lowposter]

Chris Artis has emboddied and defined the role of student, athlete, and community member.  He was a great transfer.

I dont like the new system and think that it will hurt the recruitment and retention of incoming freshmen.  But, this is the system that is in place now.

lowposter

[zvillehaze]

Chris Artis has emboddied and defined the role of student, athlete, and community member.  He was a great transfer.

I dont like the new system and think that it will hurt the recruitment and retention of incoming freshmen.  But, this is the system that is in place now.

lowposter

I was going to raise the same question regarding how this impacts the recruitment of high school kids.  On a positive note, Valpo has two HS commitments for next year and several more (4?) scholarships available for the recruiting class of '13.  I guess time will tell whether Bryce trends back to recruiting HS kids or sticks with picking through the 400+ transfers for guys he likes.

[covufan]

The addition of transfers at Valpo is not new nor is it something of concern. Let's remember that the beginning of the turnaround of the Valpo basketball program into one with a winning tradition began with the addition of two transfers: Casey Schmidt and David Redmon.

Where would VU Basketball, or Homer, be without these two!

[covufan]

Do I like seeing as many players transfer out as we've seen the last few years?  No.

Are transfers across all of Division I Men's Basketball increasing, and now part of the process?  Yes.

The VU team has to play with the cards dealt - if we have three transfers out, then we need to replace those players.  Would it be nice to add a HS player that could immediately step in with some playing time?  Yes.  This is unlikely, as the relationship with the HS player needs to be cultivated over 18-36 months, and if we didn't have a scholarship available, then such a player would be looking elsewhere.  VU is not in the same position as a Michigan State or IU - where if a scholarship becomes available, and you've kept a dialog with a HS player and told them to wait until signing day, that you could offer a scholarship at the last second, and have the kid change his mind from Northwestern (or some other hypothetical situation).  We might be in that position in a few years, but not now.  With transfers and JUCO, VU doesn't have to expend a lot of time or resources to get a quality player.  It appears that Bryce is doing a good job with the overall recruiting process - despite the number of transfers occurring in Division I basketball.

[VULB#62]

Not to derail the line of thought on this string, but............

I am a relative newbie on this whole forum (couldn't ya tell?) and I could use some help.  And maybe there are a couple of others that are in my boat as well.  Anyway, to any of you grizzled vets: I am watching the transferring and recruiting stuff, and I find it facinating. It's almost like an underworld.  But, here's my question:  Is this a new and aggressive tack taken by Bryce, or was this always the way things were done and Homer did much of the same? 

Being from the other side of the world (east coast), in the past, until I found you guys, I only followed VU via the crawler on ESPN.  I knew, like everyone else, that foreign players were a strength in the past, but this is (to me ) pretty wild - the harvesting of dissatisfied BB players at other institutions.

I am feeling good about the fact that Valpo has suddenly found a higher gear in a better league (MSO, MBB are already HL champs and Baseball and Softball are on the possible verge of same). I'll be moving to WI within the year and look forward to seeing Valpo play more often -- been basically restricted to Marist in FB and one home FB game (oh, and I can remember a UWM game in MKE in the 90's when I was there on a consulting engagement).

So, thanks for any enlightenment.

I'm quoting myself, but yesterday's dialogue on the transfer environment answered many of the questions I had as expressed in my previous post. It still seems like a bit of an underworld to me.

The other thing that occurred to me is if freshman are recruited into a program that leans on xfers, they may get fidgety with lack of playing time cuz older xfers are brought in above them on the depth chart  so they decide to xfer and the cycle is perpetuated.  Make sense?

[VULB#62]

Just read Lazerus' column.  He stated the same thing about the self-perpetuating cycle.

[wh]

I guess it begs the question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?". Lowposter said, "I don't like the current system".  To me, a system sounds like the transfer phenomonen is being driven primarily by coaches pushing players out to create openings for new players.  Is it that, or is it the current crop of GenY athletes who want a more immediate return on what is a huge commitment of time and energy?  I don't know the answer.  It would be interesting to hear from some parents of student athletes who have gone (are going) through this experience.

[FWalum]

Alex Rossi   Uh...he scored 5 points last year

paul

Thought that this was an interesting quote from an article back in April showing the Cal perspective that seems to explain and negate 78crusader's comment.

Cal Basketball Transfers: Emerson Murray, Alex Rossi
Rossi ... hard to say what happened with Rossi. Scuttlebutt is that there was a family emergency back home and he's heading back to a school closer to Illinois. It's also quite possible that there's an unofficial reason: That his hernia injury never recovered to the point where the coaches thought he'd be able to play at a high level the next several seasons. We'll probably get our answer if Rossi transfers to another D-I program or not.

Whatever the case, it's a bigger blow than Murray, as a healthy Rossi could've provided the Bears with another shooting option to pair alongside Crabbe to free both up for better looks. Rossi has a good shooting stroke that could've opened up the three point line for us. Cal now has only two proven shooters in Cobbs and Crabbe; Kreklow or Wallace will need to provide some scoring punch to keep the offense humming.

Hope he is now in shape and can stay away from the injury bug.

[VULB#62]

I guess it begs the question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?". Lowposter said, "I don't like the current system".  To me, a system sounds like the transfer phenomenon is being driven primarily by coaches pushing players out to create openings for new players.  Is it that, or is it the current crop of GenY athletes who want a more immediate return on what is a huge commitment of time and energy?  I don't know the answer.  It would be interesting to hear from some parents of student athletes who have gone (are going) through this experience.

I'm with you WH on this one.  I'm trying to imagine what it must be like to be the parent of the HS star looking to sign, knowing that this dynamic is taking hold.  It used to be so simple:  have a great HS career, sign with a school at the right level, play 4-5 years at the same place, graduate.  Now that is no longer the norm -- the norm is much more complex.  As a parent I'd be confused, wary and concerned.

[valporun]

I guess it begs the question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?". Lowposter said, "I don't like the current system".  To me, a system sounds like the transfer phenomenon is being driven primarily by coaches pushing players out to create openings for new players.  Is it that, or is it the current crop of GenY athletes who want a more immediate return on what is a huge commitment of time and energy?  I don't know the answer.  It would be interesting to hear from some parents of student athletes who have gone (are going) through this experience.

I'm with you WH on this one.  I'm trying to imagine what it must be like to be the parent of the HS star looking to sign, knowing that this dynamic is taking hold.  It used to be so simple:  have a great HS career, sign with a school at the right level, play 4-5 years at the same place, graduate.  Now that is no longer the norm -- the norm is much more complex.  As a parent I'd be confused, wary and concerned.

I would agree with WH and VULB#62 about how recruiting has drastically changed from "achieve awesome grades, play, get awesome stats, and show your acumen towards your sport" to now, "We want you, but might not keep you if you aren't what we thought you were". If I was a parent of a student-athlete being recruited in the current culture of college sports, I would, after some time of seeing the game play out, get to a point of talking my son or daughter into reconsidering what his/her goals are for the sport and his/her goals for education/career, and see if the current culture of college sports recruiting, at least at the D-I level is really worth the time involved, or if they would be better off going to a D-II/III or NAIA program where they can play and go to class, and not just be another number in the crowd.

[lowposter]

valporun:

You are making considerable sense with your comments.  There is still a tendancy among high school players and or their parents that D1 is a critical level.  It is about being happy and making academic progress during your 4 (+) years as a student athlete.  I mentioned earlier Chris Artis.  He is an outstanding example of a young man who took advantage of his gifts, both on and off the court.

Ditto - Robbie Hummel (just had to get that in).

Most of the VU players fit that category...good solid students, athletes, and citizens.  It is the trend that is disturbing. There is a certain amount of vetting and control that goes into recruiting a player over the course of a year (or 2) in high school.  Transfers come up quickly and the timing is often short. 

Let's hope this all works out.

Meanwhile, my guess is the D2's, NAIA's and D3s will see some pretty decent talent swing their way in the upcoming years. 

Lowpposter