Is Butler "head and shoulders" better than Valpo?

[vuweathernerd]

Valpo might want to look for a westward trip (UCLAs, USCs, California/Stanford) in order to try to get some of those games. Even a Gonzaga/Washington/Wash State/Utah/Utah State trip could be beneficial. Avoid BYU because that place is a no man's land for road teams. Or even a New Mexico/NMSt trip could be helpful. Isn't there a certain former IU guy down there somewhere?

I've been hoping for a westward trip for awhile now. There's a number of teams in Southern California alone that might make a good matchup. Hopefully we could get one game with a team like UCLA or USC and one with a good midmajor like Long Beach State. Valpo could have some sort of a "homecoming west" type gathering and give westcoast alumni an opportunity to watch Valpo basketball in person. Plus, maybe it could be a way to bring westcoast talent to Valpo. I'd rather see that kind of roadtrip, than bringing Ball State and IPFW into the ARC again. 

seconded. i completely agree. the only drawback is the travel involved. though perhaps this could be dealt with by trying to set up a home and home agreement.

[valporun]

The west coast trip could work, if you could get that west coast team to want to come to the Midwest in November or December, when the snow might fall...

[mj]

The west coast trip could work, if you could get that west coast team to want to come to the Midwest in November or December, when the snow might fall...

I'm of the mindset that Valpo should be willing to go on the road for the next few years and play some of the big boys without the guarantee of a return game. If we want to get back into the discussion of a top mid-major, we need to start scheduling better opponents. And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against. I'd gladly trade a few of those home games against PNC and IU Northwest for road games against good teams. 

Considering the complexity of scheduling, we could probably turn this discussion into a new thread.

[StlVUFan]

And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

[vuweathernerd]

from a personal benefit, i'd like to see them head north to minot state in the next couple years (right typhoon?). and yes, i know they're not d1. i just want to see them play in person some.

[milanmiracle]

And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

[StlVUFan]

And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

I was basically trying to also avoid the bottom feeders (like North Carolina State and DePaul).  But otherwise, yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

[milanmiracle]

And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

I was basically trying to also avoid the bottom feeders (like North Carolina State and DePaul).  But otherwise, yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

At this point I am saying go after the bottom feeders. Beating a BCS team, any BCS team, is another feather in the cap and a recuiting tool. Saying you're 1-1 against the Big East is better than saying you play the #1 team in the nation every year (and get killed).

[StlVUFan]

And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

I was basically trying to also avoid the bottom feeders (like North Carolina State and DePaul).  But otherwise, yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

At this point I am saying go after the bottom feeders. Beating a BCS team, any BCS team, is another feather in the cap and a recuiting tool. Saying you're 1-1 against the Big East is better than saying you play the #1 team in the nation every year (and get killed).

I agree it's better, but I'm shooting a bit higher than that.  Every time we talk about beating Washington, people go, "bottom feeder.  Try again."

[vuweathernerd]

And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

I was basically trying to also avoid the bottom feeders (like North Carolina State and DePaul).  But otherwise, yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

At this point I am saying go after the bottom feeders. Beating a BCS team, any BCS team, is another feather in the cap and a recuiting tool. Saying you're 1-1 against the Big East is better than saying you play the #1 team in the nation every year (and get killed).

I agree it's better, but I'm shooting a bit higher than that.  Every time we talk about beating Washington, people go, "bottom feeder.  Try again."

they weren't a bottom feeder this year. they beat arizona in the conference tourney championship game. and the year after we beat them in the cbi, they won the pac10 regular season title. last year they finished 3rd in the conference and won the conference tourney. while they had a disappointing year in 07-08, they've been pretty good in the three years since. hardly a bottom feeder. those people referring to them as such haven't been paying much attention.

[StlVUFan]

And not necessarily the #1 ranked team but major conference teams that we actually have a shot against.

Yes!  Enough of Duke and North Carolina.  Give me Wake Forest or Maryland (just wild guesses).  Enough of Kansas or Kansas State, give me Missouri or Texas A&M (again, just wild guesses).

Very well put, sir.

Big conference, average to below average team. DePaul, South Florida, Rutgers, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Minnesota, Iowa, Oregon State, Arizona State, South Carolina, LSU, or Auburn. Teams that even when they are good, aren't loaded with McDonald's All Americans.

I was basically trying to also avoid the bottom feeders (like North Carolina State and DePaul).  But otherwise, yeah, that's what I'd like to see.

At this point I am saying go after the bottom feeders. Beating a BCS team, any BCS team, is another feather in the cap and a recuiting tool. Saying you're 1-1 against the Big East is better than saying you play the #1 team in the nation every year (and get killed).

I agree it's better, but I'm shooting a bit higher than that.  Every time we talk about beating Washington, people go, "bottom feeder.  Try again."

they weren't a bottom feeder this year. they beat arizona in the conference tourney championship game. and the year after we beat them in the cbi, they won the pac10 regular season title. last year they finished 3rd in the conference and won the conference tourney. while they had a disappointing year in 07-08, they've been pretty good in the three years since. hardly a bottom feeder. those people referring to them as such haven't been paying much attention.

Well, they were that year when we played them, but yeah, they're not perennial bottom feeders like DePaul.

It's still legitimate, I understand (I've never accepted that assessment about our CBI win either), and it's good to build on.  I'm just thinking about all the plausible qualifiers that people can come up with in order to not be impressed.  I've thought them too: when Oakland beat Tennessee this year, even though they were ranked 7th in the nation at the time, the whole Pearl controversy which really seemed to drag them down quite a bit can't help but detract from the win.  It's a reminder that in order for us to win at a Big-6 school, they have to bring their C game or something.

[milanmiracle]

In summary - beat a BCS school, any BCS school, no matter how poorly they're playing. Wouldn't beating IU have been nice when they were down these last few years?

[StlVUFan]

In summary - beat a BCS school, any BCS school, no matter how poorly they're playing. Wouldn't beating IU have been nice when they were down these last few years?

Lots of luck scheduling them.

[vu72]

Seriously what an embarrassment this discussion is.
Anyone outside of 5 posters to this board would take a look at this dialogue and die from laughter. There is like a disconnect from reality bordering on severe illness going on here.
As long as the term "better" is used in any way shape or form as it compares Butler's basketball program to Valpo's, the answer is a definitive yes in favor of Butler.

Or do you not watch basketball?

I just happened upon this very old thread and found it interesting.  As I was the brunt of people's angst relative to the question, I thought I'd revive the thread.  Crusaderboy called my position an "embarrassment".  Now, over a year later, I wonder about the thread.(hey, things are really slow!!)    My point was that Butler was not "head and shoulders" better than Valpo and that they were better but not by that much.  Now, after four straight wins and Valpo putting out maybe our best team ever, what do the pundits think?  Crusaderboy? Care to contribute??

[wh]

You have to give Butler their due.  They had the 2 best back-to-back years that any mid major has ever had or probably ever will have. To turn something that highly improbable into reality, everything had to fall together perfectly - and it did.  Also, lest anyone forgets they were also led by the 3 best players they've ever had and probably ever will have.  You also can't ignore several fine seasons they had leading up to those glory years. 

As to Valpo vs. Butler I think if you look at the past 20 years or so, you could say that we had more success earlier than they did and they've had several better years later.   Now the tide seems to have turned again in our favor.  We dominated them last year and would have been favored over them in the HL again this year.  We should also be pretty well loaded again next year.  As to Butler, they've bet the entire future of their basketball program on this move to the A-10.  It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[dylanrocks]

A resounding yes.

Since 2002-03, Butler is 25-14 against BCS opponents and Valpo is 1-16.

It's not even a contest. Sorry, fellas.

[hoopfan22]

By far. Not even close. Shouldn't be that way, but it is.

[vu72]

I hate to revive this but, the question is: Is Butler (NOW) head and shoulders better than Valpo, NOT, "Historically, is Butler head and shoulders better than Valpo"  If you still think "its not even a contest", then I suggest you examine our CURRENT roster one more time or perhaps check the scores from the previous four meetings.   

[covufan]

You have to give Butler their due.  They had the 2 best back-to-back years that any mid major has ever had or probably ever will have. To turn something that highly improbable into reality, everything had to fall together perfectly - and it did.  Also, lest anyone forgets they were also led by the 3 best players they've ever had and probably ever will have.  You also can't ignore several fine seasons they had leading up to those glory years. 

As to Valpo vs. Butler I think if you look at the past 20 years or so, you could say that we had more success earlier than they did and they've had several better years later.   Now the tide seems to have turned again in our favor.  We dominated them last year and would have been favored over them in the HL again this year.  We should also be pretty well loaded again next year.  As to Butler, they've bet the entire future of their basketball program on this move to the A-10.  It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

A resounding yes.

Since 2002-03, Butler is 25-14 against BCS opponents and Valpo is 1-16.

It's not even a contest. Sorry, fellas.

Based on the 2010-11 season, I would say that Butler was "a head" above Valpo, but not "head and shoulders" above.  Based on the 2002-3 thru now data against BCS opponents, I would say the same, but leaning towards "head and shoulders".  What I would want to look at is how Butler was able to schedule all of these BCS games, and how can Valpo emulate that scheduling.  I would also want to see what opponents they played, and would Valpo have had chance in some of those games.  Valpo has been playing the NC's, Duke, etc.  I'd like to see Valpo play Northwestern or Iowa - home and United Center I'm sure would be the only way.  I'm sure the players and coaches don't feel that Butler is head and shoulders above Valpo.  Butler has shown that it can be done, and that Valpo isn't too far from doing the same.  We beat Butler in 2011.  Butler went on a great run after that game.  The question is can Valpo play at that level, and in a tournament format - NIT or NCAA.  Butler is not Duke, NC, Michigan St., etc.  They've been better than Valpo, but not that much better.

[dylanrocks]

Congratulations, 72, on four Horizon League wins, none of which remotely register on the national radar.

As for how to get where Butler is, it starts with a spark.

Get into a tournament like the Preseason NIT, 76 Classic or Diamond Head Classic and beat programs with a reputation like Notre Dame, Indiana, Tennessee and Gonzaga.

That will get you noticed by comparable programs and help you with your schedule.

[vu72]

Congratulations, 72, on four Horizon League wins, none of which remotely register on the national radar.

As for how to get where Butler is, it starts with a spark.

Get into a tournament like the Preseason NIT, 76 Classic or Diamond Head Classic and beat programs with a reputation like Notre Dame, Indiana, Tennessee and Gonzaga.

That will get you noticed by comparable programs and help you with your schedule.

I'll defer to your wisdom dylan.  I suppose it is like Milwaukee trying to get to Valpo's level of national exposure.  It won't be easy.

[wh]

I hate to revive this but, the question is: Is Butler (NOW) head and shoulders better than Valpo, NOT, "Historically, is Butler head and shoulders better than Valpo"  If you still think "its not even a contest", then I suggest you examine our CURRENT roster one more time or perhaps check the scores from the previous four meetings.   

Within the context of last season and the one at hand, I don't think even the multitude of know-nothing Butler message board fans would disagree with you that the tide has turned in Valpo's favor. 

[78crusader]

I guess I look at things from a slightly different perspective.

I could care less if VU is now better than Butler, or not.  (I will miss playing Butler; I saw a lot of good VU-Butler BB games growing up, and it seems a shame that we no longer play the one school that truly is a natural rival.) 

Rather than concentrate on that question, I think we should concentrate on beating some BCS schools and getting back to the NCAA tournament.  We all say we have a "loaded" team this year.  Let's prove it by beating some of the big boys in Nov-Dec and getting our name up on the TV screen come Selection Sunday.  Paul

[historyman]

Quote from: 78crusader on September 21, 2012, 11:57:34 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I guess I look at things from a slightly different perspective.I could care less if VU is now better than Butler, or not.  (I will miss playing Butler; I saw a lot of good VU-Butler BB games growing up, and it seems a shame that we no longer play the one school that truly is a natural rival.)  Rather than concentrate on that question, I think we should concentrate on beating some BCS schools and getting back to the NCAA tournament.  We all say we have a "loaded" team this year.  Let's prove it by beating some of the big boys in Nov-Dec and getting our name up on the TV screen come Selection Sunday.  Paul
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Surprise! I agree wholeheartedly. 

[milanmiracle]

From my perspective, yes, Butler is head and shoulders above Valpo. I am talking about the programs, not individual seasons or a game or two.Two national championship game appearances dictate they are better. Valpo can beat Butler in the regular season from now to eternity, and it just doesn't matter. Valpo can win all the regular season championships they want, but until they get to the NCAA tournament, it's just a nice door prize. If a tree falls in the woods, but nobody is there to hear it, does it really make a sound? Until Valpo can start making the dance on a regular basis and beat BCS conference teams, it's just not a reasonable comparison. It's kind of like bragging about bringing the queen of the county fair to the dance only to find out your best friend brought Miss Universe.

On the court, they're not that far apart, but clearly Butler has something figured out that Valpo doesn't...they beat legit BCS programs...Valpo can't.