Is Butler "head and shoulders" better than Valpo?

[bbtds]

vu72 said on 3/15/2011 11:44 am:

The point isn't to criticise anyone who is negative or critical of Valpo, but rather to jump on just dumb posts. When someone says "Butler is head and shoulders" better than Valpo, it is just stupid or at the best, uninformed. It is the stuff of those who will never be satisfied unless we win the national championship--on a regular basis.

Let's put this one to a vote.

[valpofan56]

Over the last 10 years Butler is probably "head and shoulders" better than 95% of D1 programs (us included).

[vuweathernerd]

i'm going with no. because as the poll states, we're looking solely at the 2010-11 season. and we beat them once this year. overall, since we joined the conference? yes. but this year, no-not 'head and shoulders.'

[StlVUFan]

Of course they are.

So what?  Does that mean we can't close the gap?  I don't know, but I'd sure like to see us try.

[cmack]

Of course they are.  It would be rather stupid to think otherwise. 

--They have dominated the Horizon for years (we have patted ourselves on the back for 4th place).
--They have dominated us head-to-head for years (we pat ourselves on the back for one home win after how many losses?)
--The have consistently competed and beaten top tier DI programs (we beat an average Washington team a couple years ago in a third rate postseason tournament.)
--They have consistent success in the NCAA over the last few years (we won 2 games just 13years ago).

I love Valpo basketball, but come on.  Of course Butler is head and shoulders better.  What is the case for saying they aren't?  Just because we beat them one time after years of losses.  That is a pretty stupid reason.

[vu72]

I guess we need a definition.  "Head and shoulders", to me implies what Kansas did to us.  Playing against a team where we were never in the game, were dominated in every phase and lost by 35.  That, is head and shoulders better.
Yes Butler has been better and may be better next year.  Think of it this way--we moved up  bunch when we went to the Horizon.  Without looking, and going from memory here, we have played Butler what--eight times? I can remember a few games that were decided by a handful of points and of course we won this year.

So was Butler head and shoulders better than VCU and Pittsburgh because they won?  It is the rhetoric that is bothersome to me.  A nonstop sense of finding something to hang around our neck.

Have they been a more successful program with national recognition?  Yep.  Is their program the pride of the Horizon?  Yep.  Did they lose twice to Milwaukee and to Youngstown State and us?  Yep. The difference is not much, one skill player I'd say--think Paul Carter or even Alec Brown.  If either had landed in our lap rather than UIC or Green Bay, do you think we would have been better than Butler?  Yep.

[rlh]

I agree with '72....it's the rhetoric that I disagree with....Is Butler presently better than VU, or anyone else in the league, certainly....but I question are they Head and Shoulders above us at this time.  Kansas was, Purdue probably....but I don't think Butler fits quite in that class.  If the question had been is Butler the "class" of the Horizon League, or is Butler better than anyone else in the Horizon League I would have voted yes....but as the question stands, I had to say no.

[covufan]

I think that Butler is better, but not significantly or "Head and Shoulders" above VU.  I think Kansas and Purdue are significantly better than VU.  I think that Butler has a better shot against Wisconsin than VU.

[StlVUFan]

I think that Butler is better, but not significantly or "Head and Shoulders" above VU.  I think Kansas and Purdue are significantly better than VU.  I think that Butler has a better shot against Wisconsin than VU.

OK, I can go along with that.  If Kansas is "Head and Shoulders" above, then no, Butler's not "Head and Shoulders" above us.

[dcvalpo]

This is an asinine discussion.  Butler went to the national championship game last year and the Sweet 16 this year.  We've beaten them once in 17 years.  YES, they are head and shoulders above us...I am not surprised that a couple of these posters are taking their stance, but it is really silly.

[StlVUFan]

This is an asinine discussion.  Butler went to the national championship game last year and the Sweet 16 this year.  We've beaten them once in 17 years.  YES, they are head and shoulders above us...I am not surprised that a couple of these posters are taking their stance, but it is really silly.

I think the important question is: what does that mean?  There's a difference between a team that simply out-recruits us and out-plays us over an entire season and a team that has the deck stacked heavily in their favor.  8 times out of 10 if Kansas winks at a recruit, we have zero chance of getting them (and Butler has maybe a 10-20 % chance of getting them, which isn't that much better).  There's a difference between a team that has to play us at our place every year (and play the same conference schedule we do) and a team that can laugh at us when we ask to play them and get away with it.  Butler more often than not has had to bring their B+ game to beat us (and they generally do).  Kansas could beat us with their D game (as they did in 2001-2002).

This is the difference between a gap that can be scaled and a gap that can't be, at least not in my lifetime.  If you want to say that Butler is head and shoulders above us, then we are a grade school team compared to Kansas.  All that means to me is that we're fine in the Horizon League but would have no business being in the Big 12.  If we're fine in the HL, that means winning it is not an unrealistic goal.

In the end, that's the only thing that matters to me.

[valpospartan]

Over the last 10 years Butler is probably "head and shoulders" better than 95% of D1 programs (us included).

If what you are saying is true, then only 17 D1 schools are better than Butler. No way, Jose.  I would say 50-60%, maybe, but not 95% of D1 programs. 

[wh]

It is the rhetoric that is bothersome to me.  A nonstop sense of finding something to hang around our neck.

I couldn't agree more.  It's like asking your kid after he just pulled his grades up to A's and B's if it bothers him that Little Johnny Butler always gets straight A's.  "Son, would you say Little Johnny Butler is just a little smarter than you, or heads above smarter than you?"    

[valpofan56]

Over the last 10 years Butler is probably "head and shoulders" better than 95% of D1 programs (us included).

If what you are saying is true, then only 17 D1 schools are better than Butler. No way, Jose.  I would say 50-60%, maybe, but not 95% of D1 programs.  

Do you know how many teams have more Sweet Sixteen births since 2003 than Butler?

Five!

Those five teams are:

Duke - 7
Kansas - 6
Michigan State - 5
Connecticut - 5
North Carolina - 5

[vu72]

This is an asinine discussion.  Butler went to the national championship game last year and the Sweet 16 this year.  We've beaten them once in 17 years.  YES, they are head and shoulders above us...I am not surprised that a couple of these posters are taking their stance, but it is really silly.

So let's take a look at the last 18 years, as dcvalpo conveniently started his analysis just after a Valpo win. In 1994 we beat Butler by 17 and then in 1995 we lost by 2.  The next time we played was in 2005 when we lost by 3 and then lost by 13 in 2007.  So, from 1994 thru 2007 we played them Four times!!!!! and beat them once and lost two other games by a combined 5 points!  Wow!  Humiliating.

So let's focus on the real time in question, which is the last four years since we have been in the Horizon. We have lost by 8,3,13,8,17,5,17 and won by 6. But back to dcvalpo for a second, so I'll ignore the 1994 win and just look at dc valpo's last 17 years in which we have played Butler a total of 11 times. Of those 11 games we have played them to within 8 points 6  times,and beaten them once.  That leaves four games where we lost by more than 8.  2 were by 13 (not exactly dominating) and 2--yes 2 games in those aforementioned 17 years where we had bad losses, each by 17.  Of course we know that one of those was this year and we avenged that defeat with a win.

Now, over the course of those years we have had many humiliating defeats like by 26 to Purdue, or 24 and 27 to Duke or 35 to Kansas.  Those teams DOMINATED us and were clearly HEAD AND SHOULDERS better than us.  Think Cory Johnson and Erik Buggs.  If some of you want to think that Butler has been head and shoulders better than us, hey, live it up.  I'm hardly in la-la land when I say that Valpo has closed the gap very quickly and will be close if not be ahead of Butler next year. Look, 2 games tell us nothing anymore than Butler losing twice to Milwaukee, once by more than 17, makes Milwaukee head and shoulders better than Butler. You don't catch up to or pass a team that is head and shoulders better in just a few years.  We have.

[cmack]

This is an asinine discussion.  Butler went to the national championship game last year and the Sweet 16 this year.  We've beaten them once in 17 years.  YES, they are head and shoulders above us...I am not surprised that a couple of these posters are taking their stance, but it is really silly.

DC is right on here.  I guess I put Butler head and shoulders above based on what they do when it really counts.  I do not focus on rather mundane head-to-head games mid-conference season.  Rather when taking on the big boys or when a championship of some kind is on the line.  They don't make excuses or pride themselves on quality losses.  They win.  Until we can perform when it really counts, of course Butler is at another level.  That is a no-brainer. 

Look at it this way, if the question were posed to anyone outside of the Valpo community, how would they compare Valpo and Butler?  I'd say it's no contest.

[dcvalpo]

This is an asinine discussion.  Butler went to the national championship game last year and the Sweet 16 this year.  We've beaten them once in 17 years.  YES, they are head and shoulders above us...I am not surprised that a couple of these posters are taking their stance, but it is really silly.

So let's take a look at the last 18 years, as dcvalpo conveniently started his analysis just after a Valpo win. In 1994 we beat Butler by 17 and then in 1995 we lost by 2.  The next time we played was in 2005 when we lost by 3 and then lost by 13 in 2007.  So, from 1994 thru 2007 we played them Four times!!!!! and beat them once and lost two other games by a combined 5 points!  Wow!  Humiliating.

So let's focus on the real time in question, which is the last four years since we have been in the Horizon. We have lost by 8,3,13,8,17,5,17 and won by 6. But back to dcvalpo for a second, so I'll ignore the 1994 win and just look at dc valpo's last 17 years in which we have played Butler a total of 11 times. Of those 11 games we have played them to within 8 points 6  times,and beaten them once.  That leaves four games where we lost by more than 8.  2 were by 13 (not exactly dominating) and 2--yes 2 games in those aforementioned 17 years where we had bad losses, each by 17.  Of course we know that one of those was this year and we avenged that defeat with a win.

Now, over the course of those years we have had many humiliating defeats like by 26 to Purdue, or 24 and 27 to Duke or 35 to Kansas.  Those teams DOMINATED us and were clearly HEAD AND SHOULDERS better than us.  Think Cory Johnson and Erik Buggs.  If some of you want to think that Butler has been head and shoulders better than us, hey, live it up.  I'm hardly in la-la land when I say that Valpo has closed the gap very quickly and will be close if not be ahead of Butler next year. Look, 2 games tell us nothing anymore than Butler losing twice to Milwaukee, once by more than 17, makes Milwaukee head and shoulders better than Butler. You don't catch up to or pass a team that is head and shoulders better in just a few years.  We have.

All I need to read here is that we have lost, and lost, and lost and lost to Butler over and over again.  And you think we have "closed the gap" on Butler?!  How?  We lose to them consistently, they have made a national mark in multiple tournaments, and we finished 4TH THIS SEASON. 

Oh well, I'm not arguing with you about this anymore...you have shown yourself to be an irrational optimist when it comes to VU.  And that's okay...I'm a huge fan too.  But I'm a realist.  And reality is Butler's program is far ahead of ours.

[dcvalpo]

Look at it this way, if the question were posed to anyone outside of the Valpo community, how would they compare Valpo and Butler?  I'd say it's no contest.

Yes, this is exactly right.

[lowposter]

One could probably make the statement that Butler is "head and shoulders" above Purdue, IU, and Notre Dame.

Our banner at the top of this page displays a photo from probably 1998.  Butler is making yet another NCAA run.

lowposter

[vu72]

The question posed was--"is Butler head and shouldered better than Valpo".  Now, if the question was, "is Butler's post season resume better than Valpo's" then the answer is beyond obvious.  As pointed out by others, what they have done, and continue to do this year, is better than almost everyone.  Yes, in that regard they are head and shoulders better than us.

My posts dealt with how we matched up with them head to head, in games in which we both played because the nature of the question left no other choice relative to a response.  As I've shown, in head to head games with us, they clearly are not head and shoulders better.  Are they better?  Yes.

[sectionee]

I would have to agree with those that say Butler is head and shoulders above Valpo.  We've beat them once in 17 years, this isn't even a rivalry yet (in my opinion both teams need to be winning about half the games to have a rivalry).  With that said, we are closing the gap (I would say Butler was head, shoulders, and knees above) which is very encouraging.

[crusaderboy]

Seriously what an embarrassment this discussion is.
Anyone outside of 5 posters to this board would take a look at this dialogue and die from laughter. There is like a disconnect from reality bordering on severe illness going on here.
As long as the term "better" is used in any way shape or form as it compares Butler's basketball program to Valpo's, the answer is a definitive yes in favor of Butler.

Or do you not watch basketball?

[milanmiracle]

Today's word is delusional boys and girls.

Seriously, this is a debate? It's not close, and unless something drastically changes, won't be for awhile. Can Valpo be competetive on the court with Butler for 2 games a year? Maybe. Can they be competetive with BCS schools and in the NCAA tournament? Um, unless I missed something, not likely.

In the last two years not only has Butler been to the National Championship game and the Sweet 16, they beat a number 1 seed to do it (twice) AND had already defeated Sweet 16 team Florida State...this year!

Come on people, look outside the two game bubble that is the Valpo vs. Butler matchup and see if these teams are even close?

[vu72]

Seriously what an embarrassment this discussion is.
Anyone outside of 5 posters to this board would take a look at this dialogue and die from laughter. There is like a disconnect from reality bordering on severe illness going on here.
As long as the term "better" is used in any way shape or form as it compares Butler's basketball program to Valpo's, the answer is a definitive yes in favor of Butler.

Or do you not watch basketball?

Perhaps more embarassing is the fact that you used to be a newspaper writer and still composed your first sentence!

[milanmiracle]

Seriously what an embarrassment this discussion is.
Anyone outside of 5 posters to this board would take a look at this dialogue and die from laughter. There is like a disconnect from reality bordering on severe illness going on here.
As long as the term "better" is used in any way shape or form as it compares Butler's basketball program to Valpo's, the answer is a definitive yes in favor of Butler.

Or do you not watch basketball?

Perhaps more embarassing is the fact that you used to be a newspaper writer and still composed your first sentence!

Really? We're going there? Ugh. It's a message board...