Butler @ Valpo (2/24) Game Thread

[vu72]

Butler will be a preseason Top 10 team next year.

The team will be more dominant than the 09-10 that went 18-0.

Coming in is an all-SEC guard and a another top 50 small forward who is going to win Mr Basketball.  He's the best shooter in the country, hands down.

This is really the last year for about 3 years where there was a reasonable chance of a team knocking Butler off.

Thanks for making my evening dawgsfan.  I almost spit up laughing when I read this.  No doubt Butler will be a much better team next year, but NONE of those things are going to happen. 

Phew! And here I thought all the dawg fans were back on drugs again!   

[staxawax]

Funny thing, the same exact post was on the Wright State board by "UdFlyerandButlerFan".  Coincidence?  I don't think so.

http://raiderroundball.yuku.com/topic/2827/Butler-s-dominance#.T0r7GocgfTA

[chef]

Obviously the facts are a little off. Rivals has Kellen Dunham ranked 141 (that's 91 spots from being a top 50 recruit). He has zero chance of winning Mr. Basketball. Rotnei Clarke was an honorable mention all-sec guard. Calling him an all-sec guard is a bit misleading.

[Nildogg]

Ok, yea Obviously your facts are a little off...
Rotnei is a stud, and yes, he was ALL-SEC (2nd team):  http://www.helena-arkansas.com/sports/x698034493/Rotnei-Clarke-makes-All-SEC-second-team
I like the looks of this, and more importantly the results he brought at Arkansas:
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=2500001

And Kellen Dunham is absolutely a legitimate Mr. Basketball candidate, and 1 of 3 that are fighting for the honor, if its not a guarantee for an IU recruit.  As for rankings, I think they are all pretty much a joke; regardless, what I hear is that Rivals lost all of their recruiting people to ESPN and other services, so their rankings have become even less reliable.  Maybe you should look at ESPN? (yes top 100)  Most importantly, Kellen is being called the best pure shooter of this years class; yes, thats in the nation. 

That, my friends is instant offense, and the answer to all of our problems.

[wh]

He is ranked behind several other kids on the ESPN list of 2012 recruits from IN, including the top ranked shooting guard in the nation (his position).  Just wondering why you think your guy has a good shot at Mr. BB?  For the record I don't know anything about these players and have no axe to grind.  In fact I think it would be great for the HL for one of it's teams to land IN's Mr. BB.

[vu72]

These guys have Dunham ranked 8th.  Still, pretty impressive:

http://www.btownbanners.com/2012-indiana-high-school-player-rankings/

[IndyValpo]

I do not know if Dunham will win Mr BB but he might.  He leads the state in scoring and there will be a vote split between Gary Harris, Yogi Farrell, Glenn Robinson and Dunham.  My guess is it will be one of the first two but Dunham is definitely in the conversation.

Here a note on Clarke's transfer.  He averaged 15 in the SEC.  Think about Bogan's effect here and he averaged much less at Ole Miss

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/katz_andy/id/6689307

[Valpo89]

Question: How can a team be more dominant than 18-0?

[zvillehaze]

He is ranked behind several other kids on the ESPN list of 2012 recruits from IN, including the top ranked shooting guard in the nation (his position).  Just wondering why you think your guy has a good shot at Mr. BB?  For the record I don't know anything about these players and have no axe to grind.  In fact I think it would be great for the HL for one of it's teams to land IN's Mr. BB.

Here's a recent analysis of the Mr. Basketball race.  http://blogs.indystar.com/recruitingcentral/2012/02/10/taking-a-deeper-look-at-the-mr-basketball-race/  It's from the Indianapolis Star, so it probably has some central Indiana bias.  FWIW, I'd be very surprised if Dunham won ... this is still an IU dominated state and that gives any kid going to IU (or any Big Ten school to a lesser extent) a voting bump.

On a side note, you guys should be enjoying this season instead of engaging in these debates.  Leave the "wait until next" year talk to us! 

[KL31NY]

Valpo89, the only answer I can think of is to be a dominant 18-0 instead of simply 18-0, to surprise people in perfection even when everyone expects you to win every game. See the 2010-11 Green Bay Phoenix women's basketball team for a recent HL example.

[chef]

Dunham is not in the Mr Basketball race. I have it from a source that should know. It's expected to be a two horse race between Harris and Farrell, both rated significantly higher than Dunham on every service, including ESPN.

[zvillehaze]

Obviously the facts are a little off. Rivals has Kellen Dunham ranked 141 (that's 91 spots from being a top 50 recruit). He has zero chance of winning Mr. Basketball. Rotnei Clarke was an honorable mention all-sec guard. Calling him an all-sec guard is a bit misleading.

Clarke was 2nd All-SEC per the SEC, but honorable mention per the AP.  The SEC included 8 or 9 guys on the first and second "teams", while the AP went with the more commonly used (and Naismith approved) five.

[sliman]

On a side note, you guys should be enjoying this season instead of engaging in these debates.  Leave the "wait until next" year talk to us! 

Amen, zvillehaze.

[valporun]

The only other way that 18-0 could look very dominant is if Butler won every game by 20-30 points. It would get very boring for the 9 teams they beat, but that's the only way they could be successfully dominant at 18-0, instead of simply 18-0 because the other teams gave Butler a run, but didn't have the gas left in the final 4 minutes of each game.

[staxawax]

Dunham is not in the Mr Basketball race. I have it from a source that should know. It's expected to be a two horse race between Harris and Farrell, both rated significantly higher than Dunham on every service, including ESPN.

Love the "source" quote.  Why do we even bother now?

Dunham is in the race.  He will be a 50/50 IF his Pendleton Heights Arabians win the state 4A title.  HSE/North Central play tomorrow night, so Gary Harris' team might be watching the rest of the tournament.  Harris is the stud athlete, but going out of state to play college may not sit well with the voters.  Ferrell's only chance is IU bias....... he plays for a 2A private school that has a shot at winning the 2A title.  Both PHHS and Ferrell's Park-Tudor teams have beaten North Central.  HSE split with North Central, PHHS lost twice to HSE, the 1st with 3 starters out and the 2nd in OT in the Hall-of-Fame tourney.  Winning state goes a long way....... look at Luke Zeller.  His half-court game winner for a state title helped him beat out Josh McRoberts and Dominic James..... 2 players that were CLEARLY better than Zeller in high school.

[zvillehaze]

Dunham is not in the Mr Basketball race. I have it from a source that should know. It's expected to be a two horse race between Harris and Farrell, both rated significantly higher than Dunham on every service, including ESPN.

I'd also be interested in that source and how "they know" ... especially since ballots aren't due for weeks.

I stated earlier that Dunham would have to overcome several "biases" to win over Harris or Ferrell, but if he's not even in the race, I'd have to question the credentials of the voters.  Dunham is averaging 30+ ppg for the #2 team in the state which has played a slate of 4A teams.  He isn't Steve Hendershot at Morgan Twp., Kirk Manns at North Judson or Ricky Hise at Kouts who put up big numbers against small schools.

If you choose to rely on ESPN rankings, then you're missing the boat.  Those are recruiting rankings based upon college potential and really have nothing to do with what a player does or doesn't accomplish in high school.  I would hope that Mr. Basketball would be based on something more than that, but I've been disappointed before.

End of the day, Harris is a worthy winner of the award.  Ferrell winning would just prove that Mr. Basketball = best player attending IU.  In any case, Butler is excited to have Kellen as a Bulldog, whether anyone else appreciates him or not.

[Valpo89]

Call me crazy, but I wouldn't be surprised if the source was Gary Donna, publisher of Hoosier Basketball Magazine. He goes to a lot of VU games because he is close with Matt Kenney's family.

[78crusader]

I was at the game Friday night.  Drove in from Iowa. 

I don't know that much about basketball. I rarely see college games in person.  Maybe I've been to 3 or 4 of them in the last 10 years. 

My two observations from the game are (1) Broekhoff may not have scored much, but I don't think we would have won without him.  His rebounding effort and overall defensive play was --if I can use this word -- superb. FWAlum has mentioned his tip of a rebound that Van Wijk caught and laid in for a bucket.  Great play.  The one that really stands out for me, though, occurred in the second half.  At that point Butler had cut the lead to 9 (I think) and was poised to seize momentum.  Broekhoff came out of nowhere to block a close-in shot that almost certainly would have gone in.  It was a sensational play.  I thought he was very wise in his shot selection, too, choosing not to take awkward shots (Edwards: please take note) or force the action.  (2) Butler's big guys were a load to handle.  I breathed a sigh of relief every time Khyle Marshall went out of the game.  If Butler gets a decent outside shooter or two for next year -- and I doubt Brad Stevens has overlooked this need -- then Butler will be one tough customer in '12-13.  Of course, so will we. 

Paul

ps this was my second ever ARC game and I still think it is a great atmosphere for a college basketball game.  I thought everything, from the pep band to the Crusaderettes to the video board to the Valpo mascot, was really good, and D-1 worthy.   

[EddieCabot]

Hmmmm, adding another banger and a phenom 6'11" freakish athlete sure will hurt us.

72 nailed this.  Valpo will be favorites next year just based on returning all their players.  But the addition of Capobianco will allow Valpo to compete beyond the Horizon.  I've heard Crean lament the loss of "the Vanilla Gorilla" and suggest that IU would be significantly better this year if they hadn't been forced to rely on freshmen. 

Capo is a tireless worker and I'm sure just his presence in practice this year has elevated the play of all of Valpo's big men.  For those who haven't seen him play, a good comparison for Capo is Kevin Love with a little better range.

[78crusader]

Capobianco averaged 2.3 and 1.0 points during his two years at IU, both of which were 20-loss seasons for the Hoosiers.

Paul

[wh]

Hmmmm, adding another banger and a phenom 6'11" freakish athlete sure will hurt us.

72 nailed this.  Valpo will be favorites next year just based on returning all their players.  But the addition of Capobianco will allow Valpo to compete beyond the Horizon.  I've heard Crean lament the loss of "the Vanilla Gorilla" and suggest that IU would be significantly better this year if they hadn't been forced to rely on freshmen. 

Capo is a tireless worker and I'm sure just his presence in practice this year has elevated the play of all of Valpo's big men.  For those who haven't seen him play, a good comparison for Capo is Kevin Love with a little better range.

Eddie, my man - long time no scarcasm!  It's great to have you back.  You've really been missed.

[chef]

As someone that's voted for the Mr. Basketball award numerous times, I'd admit the system is flawed. This is precisely why my guy could say weeks ago that he feels it will be either Harris or Ferrell. 95 percent of the voters will not see all of the top players in the state play. Almost every year, the Mr. Basketball winner is the highest rated player in the state. Luke Zeller was an exception, but geography was a big part of that, along with the way the state title game played out. I believe 5 of the last 6 Mr. Basketball winners were McDonalds All-Americans. Harris and Ferrell are McDonalds All-Americans, Dunham is not. This does not mean Dunham isn't having as outstanding a season as the other two. It also doesn't mean he won't get more votes if Pendleton Heights wins the state title and he plays huge in that game. The bottom line is when you have 300 voters around the state the couldn't pick the guy they're voting for out of a lineup, reputation carries the most weight.

[milanmiracle]

As someone that's voted for the Mr. Basketball award numerous times, I'd admit the system is flawed. This is precisely why my guy could say weeks ago that he feels it will be either Harris or Ferrell. 95 percent of the voters will not see all of the top players in the state play. Almost every year, the Mr. Basketball winner is the highest rated player in the state. Luke Zeller was an exception, but geography was a big part of that, along with the way the state title game played out. I believe 5 of the last 6 Mr. Basketball winners were McDonalds All-Americans. Harris and Ferrell are McDonalds All-Americans, Dunham is not. This does not mean Dunham isn't having as outstanding a season as the other two. It also doesn't mean he won't get more votes if Pendleton Heights wins the state title and he plays huge in that game. The bottom line is when you have 300 voters around the state the couldn't pick the guy they're voting for out of a lineup, reputation carries the most weight.

I'd say he's pretty much right on the money here. There are exceptions of course, but it really comes down to Ferrell or Harris, with Ferrell getting the nod because he stayed in state. I don't know if it's so much the IU bias, as the in state bias. That being said, Dunham is picking up steam here in the Indianapolis area. It could get interesting, but in the end the only way Dunham wins is if he gets a state title and does so in amazing fashion.

My guess...Ferrell

[FWalum]

Butler will be a preseason Top 10 team next year.

The team will be more dominant than the 09-10 that went 18-0.

Coming in is an all-SEC guard and a another top 50 small forward who is going to win Mr Basketball.  He's the best shooter in the country, hands down.

This is really the last year for about 3 years where there was a reasonable chance of a team knocking Butler off.

Interesting to see that even some Butler posters have toned down the rhetoric of these "absolute" type of statements "He's the best shooter in the country, hands down" and "Butler will be a preseason Top 10 team next year".  I don't think there is any doubt that Butler has some very good talent coming in to the program with Rotnei Clarke and Kellen Dunham. Do they make Butler a more complete team by filling the programs need for outside shooting? Clarke has proven his worth in the SEC, something that Dunham should be able to do in the Horizon if not next year then certainly in the future.

Valpo also fills some program needs with the addition of Capobianco and Fernandez.  It was very evident when VanWijk was out of games or not 100% that our offense became very one dimensional and the new bigs should help remedy that depth problem.

The real challenge then falls to the coaches.  Perhaps Butler's biggest adjustment may occur on defense when they lose two time defensive player of the year Nored. Does Clarke play the point?  Will Dunham be ready to contribute as a starter or does he come in off the bench and if he starts what position will he play and who's spot will he take? Will the addition of an outside threat open things up for Smith so that he can reach his expected potential? I think that this year Valpo is winning because of chemistry and not necessarily on talent/athleticism.  Will the addition of another big like Capobianco change that chemistry?  If we add that big to the mix and Broekhoff moves to the 3 what affect might that have on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor.  Jay Harris was one of the highest rated recruits VU has had in recent years, he will be a junior next year, does the coaching staff effectively challenge him to get stronger and improve defensively so we can finally get him on the floor in a starting spot? Does Buggs continue to improve his free throw percentage and continue to be come more of a scoring threat? 

All of these questions and no absolutes.  It really comes down to players and coaches putting things together to form a cohesive unit. I think the league will be up for grabs again next year with two teams that could possibly get an at large bid.

[zvillehaze]

As someone that's voted for the Mr. Basketball award numerous times, I'd admit the system is flawed. This is precisely why my guy could say weeks ago that he feels it will be either Harris or Ferrell. 95 percent of the voters will not see all of the top players in the state play. Almost every year, the Mr. Basketball winner is the highest rated player in the state. Luke Zeller was an exception, but geography was a big part of that, along with the way the state title game played out. I believe 5 of the last 6 Mr. Basketball winners were McDonalds All-Americans. Harris and Ferrell are McDonalds All-Americans, Dunham is not. This does not mean Dunham isn't having as outstanding a season as the other two. It also doesn't mean he won't get more votes if Pendleton Heights wins the state title and he plays huge in that game. The bottom line is when you have 300 voters around the state the couldn't pick the guy they're voting for out of a lineup, reputation carries the most weight.

I'd say he's pretty much right on the money here. There are exceptions of course, but it really comes down to Ferrell or Harris, with Ferrell getting the nod because he stayed in state. I don't know if it's so much the IU bias, as the in state bias. That being said, Dunham is picking up steam here in the Indianapolis area. It could get interesting, but in the end the only way Dunham wins is if he gets a state title and does so in amazing fashion.

My guess...Ferrell

Harris with 35 points, 22 in the 4th quarter and game-winning three at the buzzer to beat North Central.  That'll leave a mark.