The Horizon League--Next Year

[rlh]

Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought.  You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!

I am with you on this one. I am not too excited about next year with the loss of Brandon Wood AND Cory Johnson. That team finished 4th, and we expect better with their absence? Hmm...

Hope springs eternal...I guess.

if what we have coming in meshes well with what we have returning, i can understand the optimism. if the adjustment period stretches through november and december and into conference play, we may be in some trouble.

anybody know if we're planning another preseason tourney somewhere to capitalize on that extra practice time in august?

I'm sure Homer would love it, but you're only allowed one of those "foreign" trips like once every four years or something like that, so no no trips planned for August.  Not sure about an early season tournament

[vu72]

Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought.  You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!

I am with you on this one. I am not too excited about next year with the loss of Brandon Wood AND Cory Johnson. That team finished 4th, and we expect better with their absence? Hmm...

Hope springs eternal...I guess.

if what we have coming in meshes well with what we have returning, i can understand the optimism. if the adjustment period stretches through november and december and into conference play, we may be in some trouble.

anybody know if we're planning another preseason tourney somewhere to capitalize on that extra practice time in august?

You can only do a Mexico type trip every four years.

[vu72]

Predicting Valpo's starting lineup is looking more grim than I thought.  You're lucky your bench was pretty good last year!

I am with you on this one. I am not too excited about next year with the loss of Brandon Wood AND Cory Johnson. That team finished 4th, and we expect better with their absence? Hmm...

Hope springs eternal...I guess.

I'm going ot start calling these posts "miracleisms"   .  milanmiracle is the only guy who can look at a season where we win 23 games, beat all three teams that finished ahead of us and finish a whopping 1 game out of a tie for first, and imply that we didn't have a very good year last year and we expect to do better?  After all, we finished "fourth"!  Amazing and truly a half-empty analysis! 

As for Brandon and Cory's absence, I think there have been several good posts concerning the team next year.  I won't humor miracle by predicting a conference championship, but with Mack gone, I certainly think it will be someone other than Butler. 

[bbtds]

As for Brandon and Cory's absence, I think there have been several good posts concerning the team next year.  I won't humor miracle by predicting a conference championship, but with Mack gone, I certainly think it will be someone other than Butler. 

This is where you go too far with your Valpo favoritism. I agree that milanmiracle may go too far in saying next year's team can't finish better than fourth. Then you point out that Valpo has great potential without Wood and Johnson and can win a conference championship yet in the same paragraph you say Butler can't win a conference championship without Mack. You don't see that as looking at the conference race with "Valpo eyes?" You don't see that as being as one-sided as milanmiracle?

[vu72]

Well, let's look at what I said.  I specifically said "I WON'T ...predict a conference championship" and simply said that Butler wouldn't win it without Mack. 
My point for miracle was addressing our success last year and his taking the worst spin possible to say simply that "we finished fourth".   I simply said the champion would be "someone other than Butler".

[milanmiracle]

Well, let's look at what I said.  I specifically said "I WON'T ...predict a conference championship" and simply said that Butler wouldn't win it without Mack. 
My point for miracle was addressing our success last year and his taking the worst spin possible to say simply that "we finished fourth".   I simply said the champion would be "someone other than Butler".

Um, unless I missed something, Valpo did finish 4th. That's not the "worst spin possible", it's reality. I don't care if they were in first place the entire year, the end result is the same.

I am certainly not excited or impressed by a fourth place finish and missing the NCAA's and I hope the players on the team feel the same way.

[vu72]

Well, let's look at what I said.  I specifically said "I WON'T ...predict a conference championship" and simply said that Butler wouldn't win it without Mack. 
My point for miracle was addressing our success last year and his taking the worst spin possible to say simply that "we finished fourth".   I simply said the champion would be "someone other than Butler".

Um, unless I missed something, Valpo did finish 4th. That's not the "worst spin possible", it's reality. I don't care if they were in first place the entire year, the end result is the same.

I am certainly not excited or impressed by a fourth place finish and missing the NCAA's and I hope the players on the team feel the same way.

I apologize.  My comments were made as a "friendly jab" at a guy who speaks his mind, just from a different side of the discussion.  We both want Valpo to succeed.

[blackpantheruwm]

Here is the latest addition to Milwaukee, a walk-on from the suburb Whitefish Bay, just 5 minutes north of campus:

Ron Patten Dunk

Preferred Walk-on

[milanmiracle]

Well, let's look at what I said.  I specifically said "I WON'T ...predict a conference championship" and simply said that Butler wouldn't win it without Mack. 
My point for miracle was addressing our success last year and his taking the worst spin possible to say simply that "we finished fourth".   I simply said the champion would be "someone other than Butler".

Um, unless I missed something, Valpo did finish 4th. That's not the "worst spin possible", it's reality. I don't care if they were in first place the entire year, the end result is the same.

I am certainly not excited or impressed by a fourth place finish and missing the NCAA's and I hope the players on the team feel the same way.

I apologize.  My comments were made as a "friendly jab" at a guy who speaks his mind, just from a different side of the discussion.  We both want Valpo to succeed.

We both want Valpo to succeed! That pretty much sums it up. No worries!

[blackpantheruwm]

Interesting analysis but, Ben Boggs WILL be eligible in January, then, have one year after next at a minimum.  They are petitioning the NCAA for a third year as he only played 4 or 5 games his spohomore year at Tech.

In any event Boggs is a guy who was a first team Virginia player as a JUNIOR.  He broke his leg and missed his senior year.
The guy will be a tough defender and a scorer.  So, now what Mr. Lazerus??  We will get one more player and probably hold the other for the following year.  If the new guy can add anything then what do we do?  Redshirt Dino??

I'm not sure where you're going with this.  The amount of years doesn't change the fact that he's not playing until January.  You have him for half of the season, and 16 of 18 conference games (I believe - I don't know when the exact start date is).

He will undoubtedly get that extra year of eligibility.  In our own conference, Brandon Cotton won that year back.  However, he squandered it by leaving Detroit before the season.  Boggs should be able to get it.

I also think that the appeal doesn't happen now, but in fact happens when he has finished his "current" eligibility.  When Ricky Franklin came into Milwaukee, he was a Prop 48 and had to sit out as a freshman mandatory redshirt because of his grades (I'm still amazed at how he grew as a person during our time at UWM).  He got the grades, but couldn't apply for his year back until after the last year.  Perhaps it is different for playing time and not grades, I do not know.

[vu72]

Interesting analysis but, Ben Boggs WILL be eligible in January, then, have one year after next at a minimum.  They are petitioning the NCAA for a third year as he only played 4 or 5 games his spohomore year at Tech.

In any event Boggs is a guy who was a first team Virginia player as a JUNIOR.  He broke his leg and missed his senior year.
The guy will be a tough defender and a scorer.  So, now what Mr. Lazerus??  We will get one more player and probably hold the other for the following year.  If the new guy can add anything then what do we do?  Redshirt Dino??

I'm not sure where you're going with this.  The amount of years doesn't change the fact that he's not playing until January.  You have him for half of the season, and 16 of 18 conference games (I believe - I don't know when the exact start date is).

He will undoubtedly get that extra year of eligibility.  In our own conference, Brandon Cotton won that year back.  However, he squandered it by leaving Detroit before the season.  Boggs should be able to get it.

I also think that the appeal doesn't happen now, but in fact happens when he has finished his "current" eligibility.  When Ricky Franklin came into Milwaukee, he was a Prop 48 and had to sit out as a freshman mandatory redshirt because of his grades (I'm still amazed at how he grew as a person during our time at UWM).  He got the grades, but couldn't apply for his year back until after the last year.  Perhaps it is different for playing time and not grades, I do not know.

My point was directed to Mr. Lazerus' analysis of Valpo's team next year.  Whether or not Boggs plays 19 games or whatever, he will have a positive impact on the season.  Most of that impact will effect the horizon league result, which, afterall, is really what is important unless we are playing for an at-large bid.

[zvillehaze]

He will undoubtedly get that extra year of eligibility.  In our own conference, Brandon Cotton won that year back.  However, he squandered it by leaving Detroit before the season.  Boggs should be able to get it.

I also think that the appeal doesn't happen now, but in fact happens when he has finished his "current" eligibility.  When Ricky Franklin came into Milwaukee, he was a Prop 48 and had to sit out as a freshman mandatory redshirt because of his grades (I'm still amazed at how he grew as a person during our time at UWM).  He got the grades, but couldn't apply for his year back until after the last year.  Perhaps it is different for playing time and not grades, I do not know.

I'll preface my comment by stating that schools can petition for anything and the NCAA will sometimes make exceptions to their rules, but there is no rule stating that kids get a year back if they transfer midseason due to playing time.  Avery Jukes played 7 minutes in 3 games at Alabama his freshman year before transferring to Bulter in late December ... it cost him a season of eligibility.

To clarify, Brandon Cotton's extra year came via a medical hardship.  Also, Franklin's extra year came because he graduated on time, and in accordance with the NCAA rules, was granted his 4th year of eligibility.  

Again, not saying Boggs won't get some sort of waiver, but it will clearly take the NCAA making an exception to their own rules to do so.

[dylanrocks]

Most of that impact will effect the horizon league result, which, after all, is really what is important unless we are playing for an at-large bid.

I'm a firm believer that you must establish this approach before the season begins, not as it unfolds.

See: Bulldogs, Butler.

[dcvalpo]

Well, let's look at what I said.  I specifically said "I WON'T ...predict a conference championship" and simply said that Butler wouldn't win it without Mack. 
My point for miracle was addressing our success last year and his taking the worst spin possible to say simply that "we finished fourth".   I simply said the champion would be "someone other than Butler".

Um, unless I missed something, Valpo did finish 4th. That's not the "worst spin possible", it's reality. I don't care if they were in first place the entire year, the end result is the same.

I am certainly not excited or impressed by a fourth place finish and missing the NCAA's and I hope the players on the team feel the same way.

I apologize.  My comments were made as a "friendly jab" at a guy who speaks his mind, just from a different side of the discussion.  We both want Valpo to succeed.

We both want Valpo to succeed! That pretty much sums it up. No worries!

Geez, looks like VU72 is making a habit of needing to form truces

[milanmiracle]

Truces are overrated. Haha

Actually, I think most of the old guard from the other forum know where people are coming from in most instances. It's just playful jabbing, at least I take it that way. Some of the new posters are just figuring themselves out, and how to interact with other more established members.

I don't consider myself in the old guard, but at this point I don't think I am a newbie either. Most everybody here knows I want the best for Valpo, but am a glass half empty kind of guy. It's not just here if that makes anybody feel any better. 

It comes down to this, treat others as you'd want to be treated and try not to say anything you wouldn't say in person. That's just my .02, like it or don't.

[blackpantheruwm]

I think the Butler fan is in a weird place right now that none of us in the conference have experienced.  You're coming off such wild national success that a return to the "Horizon League" level seems like such a disappointment.  Everyone else in the conference seems bad to a lot of Butler fans because of the national success, but the fact of the matter is these teams were not that much worse than Butler this year.

There are many Butler fans who I consider some of the most intelligent fans of the H-League's online world, but even they have trouble with getting excited about pretty good teams elsewhere in the conference because inevitably you'll be comparing them with the Butler of recent years.

It's all right - just don't expect the rest of us to continue the same practice.

[zvillehaze]

I'm probably not that intelligent Butler fan you referenced, but I'll chime in anyway.  I'll also acknowledge that as a middle-aged guy who's been close to the program for 30 years, I have a much different perspective than the 20-somethings who dominate most message boards.

My outlook for next season is much like it was for this past season.  I've got questions about who will step forward to fill in for key departures, but I'm very confident that the coaching staff will have these guys competing and improving throughout the season.  I don't know what that will translate to in terms of wins, but I'm excited to see what the freshmen and sophomores can do with their opportunity.

I'm also not as confident as Jimmy that Butler is destined to become just another Horizon League program.  Jimmy and vu72 will make arguments that the UWM and Valpo programs are on par with Butler ... Butler's 16 NCAT wins since 2001 (vs. 3 by UWM and 0 by Valpo) would indicate otherwise.  That doesn't mean anything going forward, but in terms of actual achievements, Butler's program has been on a different level.  Lastly, history seems to indicate that Butler has been able to sustain a competitive program despite losing some pretty good players.  In 2002, Butler loses HL POTY Rylan Hainje and all-time assist leader Thomas Jackson to graduation; 2003 team makes Sweet 16.  In 2006, Butler loses HL POTY Brandon Polk to gradutation; 2007 team makes Sweet 16.  In 2008, Butler loses HL POTY Mike Green (and 4 other seniors) to graduation; 2009 team wins 26 games and earns NCAT at-large bid.  In 2010, Butler loses HL POTY Gordon Hayward to the NBA; 2011 team advances to National Championship game.  Again, all that doesn't guarantee anything, but does provide some evidence that Butler has been able to move forward after losing some pretty good players.

Lastly, I do give credit and respect to other Horizon League teams.  I think that Gary Waters has done a great job at CSU and his '09 team that won the HL tourney and beat Wake in the NCAT was one of my favorites.  I also think that the UWM teams that Pearl assembled in the mid-2000's were vey talented and played with a lot of intensity.  I certainly wouldn't criticize any fan for getting excited about their own team.  Jimmy is correct in stating that Butler and several other mid-major teams have raised the bar, so it can be hard for fans to get excited about every team that wins 20 games if they don't have any success in the post season.

[vu72]

I'm probably not that intelligent Butler fan you referenced, but I'll chime in anyway.  I'll also acknowledge that as a middle-aged guy who's been close to the program for 30 years, I have a much different perspective than the 20-somethings who dominate most message boards.

My outlook for next season is much like it was for this past season.  I've got questions about who will step forward to fill in for key departures, but I'm very confident that the coaching staff will have these guys competing and improving throughout the season.  I don't know what that will translate to in terms of wins, but I'm excited to see what the freshmen and sophomores can do with their opportunity.

I'm also not as confident as Jimmy that Butler is destined to become just another Horizon League program.  Jimmy and vu72 will make arguments that the UWM and Valpo programs are on par with Butler ... Butler's 16 NCAT wins since 2001 (vs. 3 by UWM and 0 by Valpo) would indicate otherwise.  That doesn't mean anything going forward, but in terms of actual achievements, Butler's program has been on a different level.  Lastly, history seems to indicate that Butler has been able to sustain a competitive program despite losing some pretty good players.  In 2002, Butler loses HL POTY Rylan Hainje and all-time assist leader Thomas Jackson to graduation; 2003 team makes Sweet 16.  In 2006, Butler loses HL POTY Brandon Polk to gradutation; 2007 team makes Sweet 16.  In 2008, Butler loses HL POTY Mike Green (and 4 other seniors) to graduation; 2009 team wins 26 games and earns NCAT at-large bid.  In 2010, Butler loses HL POTY Gordon Hayward to the NBA; 2011 team advances to National Championship game.  Again, all that doesn't guarantee anything, but does provide some evidence that Butler has been able to move forward after losing some pretty good players.

Lastly, I do give credit and respect to other Horizon League teams.  I think that Gary Waters has done a great job at CSU and his '09 team that won the HL tourney and beat Wake in the NCAT was one of my favorites.  I also think that the UWM teams that Pearl assembled in the mid-2000's were vey talented and played with a lot of intensity.  I certainly wouldn't criticize any fan for getting excited about their own team.  Jimmy is correct in stating that Butler and several other mid-major teams have raised the bar, so it can be hard for fans to get excited about every team that wins 20 games if they don't have any success in the post season.

I really hate to get back into this but zvillehaze's thoughtful post does need some response from me as I was "called out" in a sense.  First off, if I ever said that Valpo had the same post season success as Butler or our post season success could in any way be considered on a par with Butler, then please, somebody just shoot me.  I never intended to say anything even close to that.

What I did say is that hsitorically, in the last ten years, Butler has been better--during the regular season--than Valpo, but not much better.  I know, winning is everything and until last year we didn't have that all important W in our column.  Still, losing by a point here or there or playing competitively for most of a game, doesn't make you clearly inferior either. The issue I had was that the original post had something to do with whether or not Butler was way better than Valpo, NOT, whether or not Butler's post season record was better than Valpo's.


Zville's post concerning Butler's ability to regroup with new players is impressive to say the least.  We had a similar record in the Summit and hopefully will again in the Horizon.  This year should be fun with many teams losing key players.  It will be a battle all the way--no doubt.

[zvillehaze]

Fair enough, vu72.  And I only "call you out" to keep you on your toes ... nothing mean spirited intended from my end.   

Next year will be a tough one to call and it will be interesting to see how teams rebuild.

[motowntitan]

I'm probably not that intelligent Butler fan you referenced, but I'll chime in anyway.  I'll also acknowledge that as a middle-aged guy who's been close to the program for 30 years, I have a much different perspective than the 20-somethings who dominate most message boards.

My outlook for next season is much like it was for this past season.  I've got questions about who will step forward to fill in for key departures, but I'm very confident that the coaching staff will have these guys competing and improving throughout the season.  I don't know what that will translate to in terms of wins, but I'm excited to see what the freshmen and sophomores can do with their opportunity.

I'm also not as confident as Jimmy that Butler is destined to become just another Horizon League program.  Jimmy and vu72 will make arguments that the UWM and Valpo programs are on par with Butler ... Butler's 16 NCAT wins since 2001 (vs. 3 by UWM and 0 by Valpo) would indicate otherwise.  That doesn't mean anything going forward, but in terms of actual achievements, Butler's program has been on a different level.  Lastly, history seems to indicate that Butler has been able to sustain a competitive program despite losing some pretty good players.  In 2002, Butler loses HL POTY Rylan Hainje and all-time assist leader Thomas Jackson to graduation; 2003 team makes Sweet 16.  In 2006, Butler loses HL POTY Brandon Polk to gradutation; 2007 team makes Sweet 16.  In 2008, Butler loses HL POTY Mike Green (and 4 other seniors) to graduation; 2009 team wins 26 games and earns NCAT at-large bid.  In 2010, Butler loses HL POTY Gordon Hayward to the NBA; 2011 team advances to National Championship game.  Again, all that doesn't guarantee anything, but does provide some evidence that Butler has been able to move forward after losing some pretty good players.

Lastly, I do give credit and respect to other Horizon League teams.  I think that Gary Waters has done a great job at CSU and his '09 team that won the HL tourney and beat Wake in the NCAT was one of my favorites.  I also think that the UWM teams that Pearl assembled in the mid-2000's were vey talented and played with a lot of intensity.  I certainly wouldn't criticize any fan for getting excited about their own team.  Jimmy is correct in stating that Butler and several other mid-major teams have raised the bar, so it can be hard for fans to get excited about every team that wins 20 games if they don't have any success in the post season.

I have to say it was a well thought out and respectful post.

if I ever get to Hinkle, I will let Zville buy me a beer! 

[dylanrocks]

In terms of actual achievements, Butler's program has been on a different level.

Regardless of your affiliation or rooting interest, is there anyone out there who can dispute this?

[zvillehaze]

if I ever get to Hinkle, I will let Zville buy me a beer! 

Deal.  I might even buy you two!

[dylanrocks]

Demovsky: will turnover shake up Horizon League?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/arti....ook?odyssey=nav

Folks, the league won't be nearly as wide open as some people suspect. Look for Butler, Detroit, Cleveland State and Milwaukee to challenge for the title.