ORU is leaving the Summit League?

[vu84v2]

It seems this has been known for some time, but in all of the announcements today it was mentioned that ORU is leaving the Summit League.  While that is not necessarily surprising, they are going to the Southland Conference - certainly a step down in basketball.  While immensely geographically challenged, Oakland, SDSU and others in the Summit League seem to be building or sustaining good programs.

I would guess Southern Utah will be next to leave (surprised that they have not already). 

[valpotx]

SUU is leaving for the Big Sky at the same time that ORU is leaving for the Southland (starting next season?).  ORU is leaving solely for the purpose of less travel (based on their release last year), but as you mentioned, it is pretty much a step down in all sports, except baseball.  SUU will also enjoy less travel, but at the expense of a lesser conference in men's basketball.  The positive for them is that they get to join a solid FCS (old 1-AA scholarship) conference for football.

On the other side, you had South Dakota join this year, and Nebraska-Omaha joins next year.  North Dakota was originally going to join as well, but the Big Sky stole them away.

[StlVUFan]

The Summit League's geographical footprint will suddenly be much more managable, travel-wise.

[IndyValpo]

The Summit drops to nine teams next year....a return of Chicago State? 

Speaking of Chicago State they hosted the Great West Men's and Women's tourneys this weekend.  Does anyone know why their men's team did not participate?  Seems weird to host and not play.  Of course one time they did not participate in the Mid-Con tourney because they scheduled too many regular season games!!!!

[valpotx]

I highly doubt that they take Chicago State back in the Mid-Con/Summit, as the conference kicked them out due to academic underperformance, as well as athletic underperformance.  They have not changed either since that time....

[valporun]

I highly doubt that they take Chicago State back in the Mid-Con/Summit, as the conference kicked them out due to academic underperformance, as well as athletic underperformance.  They have not changed either since that time....

While I agree with you about the athletic underperformance, it is hard for them to recruit in the Chicago area when they are in a situation where their only home games are conference games, and those games are against teams that aren't close to Chicago at all. It doesn't help to build a good rivalry when your games range from Utah to Texas to New Jersey and North Dakota. The academic underperformance is a failure of the student-athletes and the campus leadership to make sure that they are doing what is necessary to help what is most a commuter campus.
Chicago State built this nice looking facility to help their basketball team look like they aren't in a high school gym, and to get some revenue  to the program from hosting all of these high school games for Chicago teams that would sell out at dangerous/riotous levels where fans who should be there (parents/siblings/grandparents) can't get in because all the AAU coaches/college recruiters and fans who don't have any association with the school get in before the fire marshall has to close the doors.

[VU75]

It's not just athletics that makes Chicago State a bad fit.  Three years ago they came dangerously close to losing their accreditation because of a graduation rate under 15%.

[crusadermoe]

Finally.    Logical for ORU to leave and for So. Utah to finally enter he Big Sky.
Also glad for the Dakotans that the Summit will tighten up its regional identity.   So. Dakota St. nearly beat Baylor tonight.       However, it is very odd that North Dakota would go Big Sky.   If you look at a map, there are a billion miles between eastern North Dakota and the Big Sky campuses.   Stupid move for them not to join the Summit. 
In the mid-Con days, I remember pointing out during the VU's horrific "Mid-Continent" travel that the "middle of the continent" was actually in Rugby, North Dakota.     
.

[valpotx]

Moe, I believe North Dakota wasn't going to be allowed in the Summit unless they committed to dropping the Fighting Sioux nickname that the NCAA has been asking them to drop.  The Big Sky swooped in at the last moment when UND was not receptive to this idea.

[vuweathernerd]

Moe, I believe North Dakota wasn't going to be allowed in the Summit unless they committed to dropping the Fighting Sioux nickname that the NCAA has been asking them to drop.  The Big Sky swooped in at the last moment when UND was not receptive to this idea.

this is still an ongoing issue. heard on the radio here this morning that the issue's going before the state supreme court after legislation was passed, then repealed, forcing und to get rid of the name. personally, i think the ncaa is extremely overstepping their boundaries here. what's next - peta suing until they get rid of all animal mascots due to "animal cruelty?" the council on american-islamic relations suing to get rid of names like crusader because it's "offensive?" this is a dangerous precedent that the ncaa set with this decision.

[FWalum]

When are they going to get it through their thick skulls that these names and mascots are meant to HONOR the groups or animals after which they are named. 

[valpotx]

Actually, our mascot came up several times while I was in school.  I imagine it still does?  I remember getting polled several times into whether or not it was "PC" to have the Crusader as our mascot.  My answer each time, "Hell yes, the name wasn't chosen because we support the Crusades, it is simply a MASCOT."

[mj]

Gotta disagree with you guys about the Fighting Sioux mascot. I actually work for the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, the tribe that refuses to give permission to UND to use the mascot. The NCAA set up guidelines that if a school wanted to use a Native American mascot, they had to get permission from the tribe the name was taken from. Some tribes have allowed it, Florida State and the Seminole Tribe being an example. Standing Rock won't allow it and frankly I agree with them.

The idea that the mascot "honors" the tribe is ridiculous. You have opposing teams shouting things like "Sioux suck ****" or passing around "smallpox blankets". I recently read this about the idea of "honor" and Native American mascots.

"Such a claim minimizes the racism inherent in a predominantly white university using a discriminated-against racial minority as its sports nickname. The statement also reinforces the misleading stereotypes that all Native Americans were brave and were fighters, thereby making all Native people targets of an externally imposed "honor." Ironically, in the past, attributing the label fighting to Native Americans would have been perceived as highly negative, and would have helped to justify attacks by the U.S. Army on Native Americans, as well as white settler incursions into Native territory".

Crusaders are different because it's not a racial group. If you want to bring up the Fighting Irish, it was the Irish-American community that chose the mascot themselves. I work on the reservation and everyday I witness the grinding poverty people endure there. Instead of actually working toward positive solutions to the problems on the reservation, the state legislature has nothing better to do than to try and force to university to use the mascot. It's appalling.

[vuweathernerd]

Gotta disagree with you guys about the Fighting Sioux mascot. I actually work for the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, the tribe that refuses to give permission to UND to use the mascot. The NCAA set up guidelines that if a school wanted to use a Native American mascot, they had to get permission from the tribe the name was taken from. Some tribes have allowed it, Florida State and the Seminole Tribe being an example. Standing Rock won't allow it and frankly I agree with them.

The idea that the mascot "honors" the tribe is ridiculous. You have opposing teams shouting things like "Sioux suck ****" or passing around "smallpox blankets". I recently read this about the idea of "honor" and Native American mascots.

"Such a claim minimizes the racism inherent in a predominantly white university using a discriminated-against racial minority as its sports nickname. The statement also reinforces the misleading stereotypes that all Native Americans were brave and were fighters, thereby making all Native people targets of an externally imposed "honor." Ironically, in the past, attributing the label fighting to Native Americans would have been perceived as highly negative, and would have helped to justify attacks by the U.S. Army on Native Americans, as well as white settler incursions into Native territory".

Crusaders are different because it's not a racial group. If you want to bring up the Fighting Irish, it was the Irish-American community that chose the mascot themselves. I work on the reservation and everyday I witness the grinding poverty people endure there. Instead of actually working toward positive solutions to the problems on the reservation, the state legislature has nothing better to do than to try and force to university to use the mascot. It's appalling.

but aren't there also other sioux tribes who have granted their permission, and even lobbied in favor of the school keeping the name?

[FWalum]

Gotta disagree with you guys about the Fighting Sioux mascot. I actually work for the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, the tribe that refuses to give permission to UND to use the mascot. The NCAA set up guidelines that if a school wanted to use a Native American mascot, they had to get permission from the tribe the name was taken from. Some tribes have allowed it, Florida State and the Seminole Tribe being an example. Standing Rock won't allow it and frankly I agree with them.

The idea that the mascot "honors" the tribe is ridiculous. You have opposing teams shouting things like "Sioux suck ****" or passing around "smallpox blankets". I recently read this about the idea of "honor" and Native American mascots.

"Such a claim minimizes the racism inherent in a predominantly white university using a discriminated-against racial minority as its sports nickname. The statement also reinforces the misleading stereotypes that all Native Americans were brave and were fighters, thereby making all Native people targets of an externally imposed "honor." Ironically, in the past, attributing the label fighting to Native Americans would have been perceived as highly negative, and would have helped to justify attacks by the U.S. Army on Native Americans, as well as white settler incursions into Native territory".

Crusaders are different because it's not a racial group. If you want to bring up the Fighting Irish, it was the Irish-American community that chose the mascot themselves. I work on the reservation and everyday I witness the grinding poverty people endure there. Instead of actually working toward positive solutions to the problems on the reservation, the state legislature has nothing better to do than to try and force to university to use the mascot. It's appalling.

While I respect the tribe's right to withhold permission and not allow the use of their name I think it is very short sighted.  In response to your complaint about "shouting things like "Sioux suck ****", every opposing team is going to say things like that no matter who the mascot or university is or represents.  My daughter went to GWU and I am sure the opposition said things like George Washington sucks *****, that doesn't mean they should change their name or that the opposition actually thinks George Washington performed lewd sex acts. 

Whoever wrote what you read must be an uber liberal.  The fact that they see inherent racism in a university Indian mascot is really a stretch for me.  I have never heard of a university, school or team wanting to associate themselves with things that have negative symbolism.  I can possibly see where being known for fighting may have some negative connotation, but I think the author needs to remember we are no longer living in the 1880's.

I am not sure were you came up with the idea that the Irish-American community chose the Fighting Irish mascot.  First of all the University was founded by a group of Catholic missionary priests and brothers from France, under the name Notre Dame du Lac, which is French for Our Lady of the Lake. So the Irish had little to do with Notre Dame and I doubt that the relatively small number of Irish immigrants that settled in the South Bend area went to Notre Dame.  Or.... are you taking the decidedly racist view point that all Catholics are drunken fighting Irishmen.   

Here is how the university says the nickname and hence the mascot began.

One story suggests the moniker was born in 1899 with Notre Dame leading Northwestern 5-0 at halftime of a game in Evanston, Ill. The Wildcat fans supposedly began to chant, "Kill the Fighting Irish, kill the Fighting Irish," as the second half opened.

Another tale has the nickname originating at halftime of the Notre Dame-Michigan game in 1909. With his team trailing, one Notre Dame player yelled to his teammates - who happened to have names like Dolan, Kelly, Glynn, Duffy and Ryan - "What's the matter with you guys? You're all Irish and you're not fighting worth a lick."

Notre Dame came back to win the game and press, after overhearing the remark, reported the game as a victory for the "Fighting Irish."

The most generally accepted explanation is that the press coined the nickname as a characterization of Notre Dame athletic teams, their never-say-die fighting spirit and the Irish qualities of grit, determination and tenacity. The term likely began as an abusive expression tauntingly directed toward the athletes from the small, private, Catholic institution. Notre Dame alumnus Francis Wallace popularized it in his New York Daily News columns in the 1920s.

The Notre Dame Scholastic, in a 1929 edition, printed its own version of the story:

"The term 'Fighting Irish' has been applied to Notre Dame teams for years. It first attached itself years ago when the school, comparatively unknown, sent its athletic teams away to play in another city ...At that time the title 'Fighting Irish' held no glory or prestige ...

"The years passed swiftly and the school began to take a place in the sports world ...'Fighting Irish' took on a new meaning. The unknown of a few years past has boldly taken a place among the leaders. The unkind appellation became symbolic of the struggle for supremacy of the field. ...The team, while given in irony, has become our heritage. ...So truly does it represent us that we unwilling to part with it ..."

Notre Dame competed under the nickname "Catholics" during the 1800s and became more widely known as the "Ramblers" during the early 1920s in the days of the Four Horsemen.

The second to last paragraph says volumes about how a potentially negative symbol can be turned into a positive one.  Perhaps the tribe ought to look at this issue in that light before North Dakota changes their mascot and the Fighting Sioux fade into the sunset and out of the collective consciousness of the white majority.

[vuweathernerd]

Notre Dame competed under the nickname "Catholics" during the 1800s and became more widely known as the "Ramblers" during the early 1920s in the days of the Four Horsemen.

haha. during that same period, we had our own set of "horsemen" a little further west. thank god for the lutherans.

[historyman]

   I suppose you want us to come too?

[EddieCabot]

ORU will forfeit two Southland Conference games for having too many non-DI teams on schedule.  Ouch.

http://www.orugoldeneagles.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17000&ATCLID=209361875

Had anyone else ever heard of this rule?  I sure hadn't.  It's strange that Valpo didn't have a problem, since they've played 5 non-DI teams already.  It may be possible that they got a waiver from the NCAA for the Southeastern game since it was part of a tournament and they didn't pick the opponent.  Anyone know for sure?

I looked at other HL schedules and saw that UWGB also had 3 non-DI teams on their regular season schedule, but only played 1 exhibition game, so they only had 4 total non-DI teams. 

[valpotx]

Both Cincinnati Christian and Southeastern were part of tournaments, so I believe they don't count.

[EddieCabot]

Both Cincinnati Christian and Southeastern were part of tournaments, so I believe they don't count.

I figured it was something like that ... thanks.

This mess may help explain why ORU is heading back to the Summit!

[LaPorteAveApostle]

This mess may help explain why ORU is heading back to the Summit!

Or the other way around--because they're leaving, the old office is not going to cut them a DIME of slack this year (just the opposite).

Cf. the CCHA treating Michigan and the other B1G hockey teams last year...

[a3uge]

This mess may help explain why ORU is heading back to the Summit!

Or the other way around--because they're leaving, the old office is not going to cut them a DIME of slack this year (just the opposite).

Cf. the CCHA treating Michigan and the other B1G hockey teams last year...

My thoughts exactly. Appears to be a bitter reaction by the Southland.

[EddieCabot]

This mess may help explain why ORU is heading back to the Summit!

Or the other way around--because they're leaving, the old office is not going to cut them a DIME of slack this year (just the opposite).

Cf. the CCHA treating Michigan and the other B1G hockey teams last year...

My thoughts exactly. Appears to be a bitter reaction by the Southland.

FWIW, the "4 game" rule is from the NCAA, not the Southland.

[EddieCabot]

And now Stephen F. Austin will forfeit a game.  Article blames the Southland, so maybe my previous post was wrong.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24402726/southland-conference-forces-stephen-f-austin-to-forfeit-game

[valpotx]

Wow, the Southland is even more of a cluster F of a conference than I originally thought!  How do you not prepare your teams for this knowledge, ahead of the season??