Butler to move to the A-10?

[StlVUFan]

http://www.brewcityball.com/forums/content.php?274-Without-Butler-few-options-on-the-Horizon

[Nildogg]

Lots of reports floating around that this may be a done deal.  I expect Butler to move quickly, if indeed they do have an offer.  With all the national attention Valpo is getting for their league championship and NIT appearance, Collier knows the window of opportunity for a move like this is closing quickly.

I've spoken to 3 sources within the Butler Athetic Department, and while 2 of them cut their conversations short to finish cleaning the restrooms, one did say, under condition of anonymity that Butler AD Barry Collier has specifically noted fear (and this person emphasized fear - as he pointed out Collier was trembling and sweating at the time) in Valpo's emerging national presence, in his motivation to "run" from the Horizon.  This person only chose to share this under the veil of anonymity - so we cannot widely publicize this news - but it does appear to have credibility. 
I am confident Butler is leaving the conference for no other reason than that they know they cannot continue to compete with such a power as Valpo, and the A-10 was the next best option.  It was no secret that major Butler advertisers Erie Insurance, and G Thrapp jewelers are leaving after this year for the "HOT" Valparasio market... which compounds the situation.  This is a move that Butler has to make.

[staxawax]

Lots of reports floating around that this may be a done deal.  I expect Butler to move quickly, if indeed they do have an offer.  With all the national attention Valpo is getting for their league championship and NIT appearance, Collier knows the window of opportunity for a move like this is closing quickly.

I've spoken to 3 sources within the Butler Athetic Department, and while 2 of them cut their conversations short to finish cleaning the restrooms, one did say, under condition of anonymity that Butler AD Barry Collier has specifically noted fear (and this person emphasized fear - as he pointed out Collier was trembling and sweating at the time) in Valpo's emerging national presence, in his motivation to "run" from the Horizon.  This person only chose to share this under the veil of anonymity - so we cannot widely publicize this news - but it does appear to have credibility. 
I am confident Butler is leaving the conference for no other reason than that they know they cannot continue to compete with such a power as Valpo, and the A-10 was the next best option.  It was no secret that major Butler advertisers Erie Insurance, and G Thrapp jewelers are leaving after this year for the "HOT" Valparasio market... which compounds the situation.  This is a move that Butler has to make.

this..... and the fact the sponsors love the dirty brown and gold colors of Valpo.  It's a win/win proposition.

[wh]

nil, stax and gametime - I think you guys are being punked by satirist and fellow Butler fan eddie Cabot.  Look at his 11-post history.   

[StlVUFan]

wh, I think they are *participating* in the sarcasm.

[Nildogg]

wh, I think they are *participating* in the sarcasm.

[valporun]

Nothing says "Game On" like audience participatory sarcasm... Wasn't Collier the coach who left because he became the athletic director, and the two jobs would have been too much? Maybe Valpo joining the Horizon League and winning regular season titles in a few sports is getting to be too much for him, so he's talking taking the Butler ball and running to the A-10?

[a3uge]

You guys are missing some key schools. Butler could easily be replaced by a number of schools.

University of Findlay Oilers
There's a rumor going on that the NCAA is fastracking this D-II team so they can join a mid-major conference to fill the void of schools shifting to the power 6 conferences. The Summit League is recruiting this school heavily, so I would be sad to see that conference win a war with the Horizon League over this school. Located in Ohio, Findlay would be a great geographical fit for the Horizon. There is some question on whether they can make the jump from D-II to D-I and compete right away. I think most schools who have made the short transition have proved there is not much of a gap.

Chicago State Cougars
Chicago State played in the MidCon with Valpo and YSU. They came to the MidCon the year after many of the current Horizon League teams left. They've since left the Summit League to explore different options. They're in the Great West right now, and are looking for a better geographical conference. Chicago State would make sense. They would share a rivalry with Loyola and UIC, and they would fit perfectly into the geographical landscape of the Horizon. Academics-wise might be the reason Chicago Sate would not be offered a bid, although Chicago State could be a blessing in disguise for teams like Youngstown State, whose academic standing in the conference would increase from the move.

Marquette Golden Eagles (Warriors)
Marquette also makes a lot of sense geographically for the Horizon League. They would share a big rivalry with University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. With the Big East removing all non-football schools in 2015, it looks as if Marquette, lacking a stadium, will be orphaned. I think the Horizon League would be a possible landing spot for the Milwaukee school. Since they are being removed, Marquette may want to move from the Big East as early as possible. Although this move makes a lot of sense for both parties, you would have to ignore the rumors of the all-Jesuit conference that looks as if it's all-but-confirmed. This would, of course, pull Detroit from the Horizon, so we would actually have to worry about adding two schools a year later. I think it's a risky move, but it would help the conference short-term.

Princeton Tigers
Princeton narrowly missed the tournament this year, and made the big dance in 2011. Princeton would definitely help the Horizon league's academic standings, and bolster that image. The only thing that could possibly prevent them from joining the conference is the lack of Lacrosse at a D1 level. I heard UWM and UWGB have club teams that were on the verge of becoming D1, and Wright State had significant interest as well. I think Princeton could go independent in lacrosse (I'd have to look into that more) or the Horizon could pick up lacrosse as a D1 sport.

University of Hradec Králové Medvědi (Bears)
Since 18 Canadian universities are being added to NCAA D1 basketball in 2014, I think it would be a possibility that the Horizon League, given the current situation, could lobby the NCAA into admitting international schools. Hradec Králové has one of the best college basketball programs in the Czech Republic, and have always been looking to compete against American schools full-time. I believe they played Akron a few years ago and lost in overtime, and beat Fairfield by double digits in that same tournament. They've also beaten up on lower schools such as Delaware St, so it seams as if they're at the Horizon League level. Travel times would be a negative, especially since this school is located in the eastern portion of the Czech Republic.

[valpotx]

How long did it take you to make such a post that is obviously a farce?  Just curious how much of your time was wasted 

[drewsaders11]

"...especially since this school is located in the Eastern portion of the Czech Republic".  Yea, if they were in the western portion, you never know.

A3uge, you should write for the onion. 

[staxawax]

"...especially since this school is located in the Eastern portion of the Czech Republic".  Yea, if they were in the western portion, you never know.

A3uge, you should write for the onion. 

Valpo would veto that admission........ interferes with their recruiting base.  8)

[valpotx]

Ok, I have to give you that one Stax 

[vuweathernerd]

"...especially since this school is located in the Eastern portion of the Czech Republic".  Yea, if they were in the western portion, you never know.

A3uge, you should write for the onion. 

Valpo would veto that admission........ interferes with their recruiting base.  8)

[valporun]

I don't think Valpo would want to incur the costs of plane tickets to the Czech Republic, unless we wanted a non-conference basketball record of 0-9 full of guarantee games against the major of the majors who wouldn't normally want to play us. Otherwise, the list of teams is smelling of a stronger sarcasm than I normally run across.

[dylanrocks]

Demovsky: loss of Butler a blow to Horizon

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20120320/GPG020101/203200453

Rob hits a grand slam with this column, much as the A-10 does by adding Butler.

[valpopal]

Demovsky: loss of Butler a blow to Horizon

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20120320/GPG020101/203200453

Rob hits a grand slam with this column, much as the A-10 does by adding Butler.

I agree with everything in this article except when the author states that "the minute the Horizon League loses Butler, it becomes no better than the Summit League." The Horizon League will be stronger and more attractive than the Summit League, especially when you consider the Summit League's loss of Oral Roberts and possibly Oakland.

[dylanrocks]

Just looking at the competitiveness of the teams and not the geography, I'm not sure how much more attractive the Horizon will be than the Summit.

As for how winnable the league will be, will it really be that much easier to gain a bid when Cleveland State, Wright State, Valparaiso, Milwaukee, IUPUI and Oakland, for instance, are all vying for one spot in the dance?

Where it really impairs us, of course, is with our seeding and so our ability to advance through the brackets.

By the way, Milwaukee -- No. 30 in the country -- shouldn't be discounted as a "major market."

[wh]

If the HL can lure Oakland away from the Summit, we will kill a lot of birds with one stone.  Along with the loss of ORU the Summit's RPI will drop like a rock when Oakland leaves.  Despite all the disadvantages of travel, time away from the classroom, and no natural rivalries, Oakland has done a better job of selling it's program to quality potential recruits than most of the programs in the HL have sold theirs.  No, they're not Butler, but their profile is much closer to Butler's than it is to UIC or Loyola.  They would be a great addition. 

The sky is not falling.  The end of the world is not here. 

[BigDWSU]

The HL will be fine without Butler.  We will lose their name recognition, but they are replaceable.  In the 1990s the HL lost: Dayton, Duquesne, Evansville, La Salle, Marquette, Northern Illinois, Notre Dame,  Saint Louis, and Xavier.  Butler was the doormat of the HL before all of these teams left.  Xavier left in 1995.  Prior to Xavier leaving the HL, Butler only had one NCAA tournament appearance in 1962.  They started their current run of NCAA success in 1997, 2 years after all of the above schools left. 

The HL will take a hit on name recognition initially, because Butler has been the team to beat in the HL for awhile now.   We won't necessarily take a dive in conference ranking if we add the right team though.  Oakland has been successful enough recently to help offset the loss of Butler.  (Butler had an RPI of 116 this year compared to Oaklands RPI of 141).  The good news is the HL is wide open and the rest of the conference has a chance to step up to the plate the same way Butler stepped up to the plate in the 1990s the last time the HL lost several members.   

[crusaderjoe]

There's a zero chance of this happening because of FBS football, but since we're all speculating at this point, given the state of the potential flux with the WAC and Sun Belt per the MWC/CUSA merger, I'd try and steal Western Kentucky.  They have a basketball history that rivals Butler.  WKU would be my #1 choice if they could still somehow park their football in an FBS conference and join the HL.  The Sun Belt is rather far flunged...sound familiar?

As far as Oakland, as a private institution that may need help in the future from other private institutions should the public vs. faith-based private distinction come into play with realignment, VU should really defer to Detroit on this issue, IMO.

[EddieCabot]

The HL will be fine without Butler.  We will lose their name recognition, but they are replaceable.  In the 1990s the HL lost: Dayton, Duquesne, Evansville, La Salle, Marquette, Northern Illinois, Notre Dame,  Saint Louis, and Xavier.  Butler was the doormat of the HL before all of these teams left.  Xavier left in 1995.  Prior to Xavier leaving the HL, Butler only had one NCAA tournament appearance in 1962.  They started their current run of NCAA success in 1997, 2 years after all of the above schools left. 

The HL will take a hit on name recognition initially, because Butler has been the team to beat in the HL for awhile now.   We won't necessarily take a dive in conference ranking if we add the right team though.  Oakland has been successful enough recently to help offset the loss of Butler.  (Butler had an RPI of 116 this year compared to Oaklands RPI of 141).  The good news is the HL is wide open and the rest of the conference has a chance to step up to the plate the same way Butler stepped up to the plate in the 1990s the last time the HL lost several members.

Can't confirm nor deny the Butler report.  If they leave, dwsu is correct that adding Oakland would cause only a slight drop in conference rankings from where the Horizon was this year.  That would put the league at about #15 ... if you're happy with that, then be happy.  You saw this year exactly was that gets you ... a #14 seed and a first round beatdown.

As for the Horizon/Butler history lesson, I'd just say that the Horizon League Record Book is a great source for folks that weren't around/interested in the HL during the '90's. A few things I'd revise in dwsu's comments:

1.  The real hit to the MCC was when long time members Xavier, Evansville and SLU left.  All the other teams he mentioned were merely passthroughs that had marginal impact on the conference.  Dayton was here 5 years, but was 4-26 (3-11) in their last year in the conference.  LaSalle stayed 3 years and left by going 7-13 (3-7).  Notre Dame never played in the conference and Duquesne was here 1 year.  NIU was here 3 and Marquette only 2 ... bowing out with an 11-18 season.

2.  Butler went to the NCAA tourney in '97 (dwsu got that tidbit right).  In the 6 previous seasons in the '90's, Butler was 100-71 overall and 48-31 in the MCC with 2 NIT appearances.  Maybe dwsu considers that "doormat" material, but those winning percentages are better than WSU has achieved since 2000 in the HL.  What's lower than "doormat"?

If Butler leaves, it will certainly create opportunities for more teams to get to the NCAA tourney.  It's easy to argue that some team (or teams) will take that opportunity to improve their programs and become something special.  But if no team did that while reaping the benefits (recognition/NCAA tourney $) of having Butler in the League, who's going to do it if they leave?

[BigDWSU]

Can't confirm nor deny the Butler report.  If they leave, dwsu is correct that adding Oakland would cause only a slight drop in conference rankings from where the Horizon was this year.  That would put the league at about #15 ... if you're happy with that, then be happy.  You saw this year exactly was that gets you ... a #14 seed and a first round beatdown.

As for the Horizon/Butler history lesson, I'd just say that the Horizon League Record Book is a great source for folks that weren't around/interested in the HL during the '90's. A few things I'd revise in dwsu's comments:

1.  The real hit to the MCC was when long time members Xavier, Evansville and SLU left.  All the other teams he mentioned were merely passthroughs that had marginal impact on the conference.  Dayton was here 5 years, but was 4-26 (3-11) in their last year in the conference.  LaSalle stayed 3 years and left by going 7-13 (3-7).  Notre Dame never played in the conference and Duquesne was here 1 year.  NIU was here 3 and Marquette only 2 ... bowing out with an 11-18 season.

2.  Butler went to the NCAA tourney in '97 (dwsu got that tidbit right).  In the 6 previous seasons in the '90's, Butler was 100-71 overall and 48-31 in the MCC with 2 NIT appearances.  Maybe dwsu considers that "doormat" material, but those winning percentages are better than WSU has achieved since 2000 in the HL.  What's lower than "doormat"?

If Butler leaves, it will certainly create opportunities for more teams to get to the NCAA tourney.  It's easy to argue that some team (or teams) will take that opportunity to improve their programs and become something special.  But if no team did that while reaping the benefits (recognition/NCAA tourney $) of having Butler in the League, who's going to do it if they leave?

1.  The HL got a 14 seed this year because the 3rd place team won the conference tournament.  If Valpo or CSU won the tournament, they would have been higher seeded. 

2.  I stand by my comments about Butler being the doormat of the HL before all of those teams left the HL.  You included seasons AFTER those teams left the HL.  Here is Butler's 10 year record prior to Xavier leaving in 1995.  Butler finished dead last 30% of the time and in the bottom half of the conference 50% of the time.  Looks like a doormat to me.

1985/86: 9-19, 2-10 HL, 7th out of 7 teams
1986/87:  12-16, 5-7, 5th out of 7 teams
1987/88: 14-14, 5-5, 3rd of 6 teams
1988/89: 11-17, 3-9, 7th out of 7 teams
1989/90: 6-22, 2-12, 8th out of 8 teams
1990/91: 18-11, 10-4, 2nd out of 8 teams
1991/92: 21-10, 7-3, 3rd out of 6 teams
1992/93: 11-17, 5-9, 6th out of 8 teams
1993/94: 16-13, 6-4, 3rd out of 6 teams
1994/95: 15-12, 8-7, 5th of 11 teams

3.  UWM has won NCAA games.  CSU has won an NCAA game recently. 

[vuweathernerd]

hate to bust y'alls balls, but detroit was a 15 this year. not 14. 

[staxawax]

OK, time to sound elitist.  Why does America know anything about the Horizon League?  Not because Butler emerged from a doormat in the 90's to go to multiple NCAA tournaments.  Not because they swept the conference 2 years ago. 

It's because a small, private university in Indianapolis defied tremendous odds and went to not one, but two consecutive NCAA championship games.  The games we are watching in this year's tournament........ Ohio U., Norfolk State, Lehigh........ Butler did that almost EVERY GAME 2 consecutive years.  Not only is it unprecedented for a mid-major, it may never happen again. 

This is why America knows the Horizon League.

If ya' all think they can be easily replaced I have no hope for you.

[Gametime]

I agree with Stax. It may be hard to accept, but I believe it is true.