Butler to move to the A-10?

[agibson]

By revenue I mean that you have to pay to see these sports.  You don't have to pay to see a crosss country meet!

Ah, funny!  I do take your meeting.  But, the usage I'm used to seeing is to distinguish sports that generate a net profit (by some definition) for the university.  Many places this is football, and men's basketball.

[valpopal]

The HL will be just fine in adding Oakland in all sports.  They are very competitive across all sports, so the only real drop-off will be out-of-conference solid wins, unless we pick up where Butler left off (very possible at least this year).  I also agree that to follow-up the growth comment, they appear to be looking at adding 3 schools.  In addition to IPFW and IUPUI, I don't think that SDSU or NDSU would help the conference.  Their ultimate goals will be in a FBS conference (WAC, MWC, etc) due to their strong football programs.  We want schools that won't view us as a stop-gap on the way to bigger things. 

I agree. I think Oakland is the best choice to fill a spot right now. But I also believe the Horizon League would like to maintain a presence in Indianapolis, thus could lean toward inviting IUPUI. Given that, the logical other team to invite, for geographical purposes and a few others, would be IPFW. Oakland, IUPUI, and IPFW would not be the most exciting trio to add, but they would seem the easiest to blend into the league, create travel partners, and maintain a following in the region. For a number of reasons, all three should jump at the opportunity.

[valpotx]

I could eventually wrap my mind around this idea if IUPUI brought back baseball (went away my FR year in 2000-2001 I believe), as Oakland/IPFW/IUPUI would bring us to 8 baseball teams again.  I don't think IPFW/IUPUI add much value in the main revenue producer of men's basketball, being commuter campuses.

[milldew72]

Don't dismiss Murray State or Morehead, and the WKU tout has merit.
As a Murray grad, I know the program has not been all that happy with recent moves into the conference, although the Belmont move is intriguing. In the past 15 years the OVC has made some additions that have hurt RPI and affected the history of the league. And their football program has never been good and frankly would fit in well with the likes of the Pioneer league. Morehead is an OVC school and plays in the Pioneer League.
And as a Racer, there's nothing I'd love more than to see them join.
But I think the HIlltoppers are the most plausible of the southern possibilities. They're in a terrible hoops conference and their football has never been solid, at least not since Jack Harbaugh was there.
Just a thought or two.

[valpotx]

Any word on what the MVC is doing with all the movement going on?  They have 10 schools currently, but who knows if any of theirs get poached as well.  Wouldn't it be funny if we somehow turned our back on the HL and got into the MVC? 

[wh]

HL Commissioner Jon LeCrone is holding a press conference at 2 p.m. Eastern/ 1 Central.  Apparently, it will be carried live on the HLN

http://www.horizonleague.org/video.html


(They have removed it as a live event, so I don't know what's going on.)

I'm listening to it now:

http://www.horizonleague.org/live/6312

[valpotx]

What did he say?

[valpopal]

Listening to the Commissioner's conference, I came away with a few notes.

First, he spoke about expansion as though the league wants to add more than one team if they can, probably three is my guess.

Second, Oakland is a prime candidate. Much was made about the possible veto by a member (Detroit) being overruled by unanimous vote of the other teams in the league. It was obvious that Oakland was on the mind of the commissioner and others.

Third, the league office is remaining in Indianapolis and the league will co-host an NCAA regional there in 2013-2014. It seems the Horizon League wants to maintain a presence in the Indy market, which gives IUPUI an advantage.

Fourth, if Oakland and IUPUI are added, another team would likely be in the mix as well--whether it would be IPFW from the Summit or Evansville from the MVC or any other team--since the commissioner spoke about expansion and looking ahead.

Fifth, the commissioner used the word "measured" repeatedly, which could be perceived as cautious at best, when I wish he had used another term like "ambitious" to describe the steps ahead. To keep from losing future recruits and interest in the league, I would like to have seen a more energetic and bold approach promised.

[wh]

Here it is in its entirety:

http://www.horizonleague.org/video.html

There is no sound before the first 3 min. 20 sec.

[EddieCabot]

There is no sound before the first 3 min. 20 sec.

Richard Nixon and H.R. Haldeman could not be reached for comment. 

[vu72]

Although I would agree that a more aggressive stance would have been good, I certainly understand his position.  It was said earlier, possibly by you wh, that the A-10 may have some additional defections would make the remaining teams no better than the Horizon.  There will be some additional shifting, no doubt.  Why not let the chips fall where they may and then go for someone more impressive than IUPUI.  A Valley private school like Drake or Evansville would be terrific and raise our profile.

[StlVUFan]

Certainly several of the questions thrown at him had "Oakland" written all over them.  Rob Demovsky (I think) asked about arena size, for example.

My takeaway is that it is not true that Detroit had to get TWO other schools to agree with their veto of Oakland several years ago.  Only one was necessary.  If Loyola is still of that mindset, Oakland can still be blocked.

I would kill to see Oakland added.

Even as I say this, I find all this talk of poaching teams from other conferences distasteful.  I still have feelings for the Summit League, who is already losing one of its stronger members.  I would hope that if Oakland truly has not outgrown the Summit League, they would decline the offer.  I don't know how to define "outgrown", mind you, but I would hope those who are responsible for these kinds of decisions are defining that concept responsibly.  I sensed that LeCrone finds this very aspect the most distasteful aspect of all.

As for Butler, my feelings right now are to wish them luck.  One year from now, that will change to "Don't let the door slam you in the butt on the way out."  No hard feelings, mind you, but it's sort of like Pink Floyd carrying on without Roger Waters.  They're leaving, so most of my love for them will go along with it.  They'll be just another mid-major: I'll root for them, unless they're playing a HL team (which is really no different than it is now), and I won't be paying nearly as much attention to them as I have been these 5 years and will next year.

By the way, I don't think this is going to affect home conference games against Butler next year around the HL.  They already inspire our best.  What I do remember from 6 years ago was the contention by some that Valpo was getting shafted on a regular basis by Mid-Con refs.  I wonder if that will be the perception this time around with Butler?

[milanmiracle]

According to Andy Katz, done deal: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7879598/butler-bulldogs-join-atlantic-10-conference-all-sports-source-says

Butler's departure will crush the Horizon League. The Horizon League is left with lower-profile Midwestern schools in Cleveland State, Loyola (Ill.), Detroit, Illinois-Chicago, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Valparaiso, Wright State and Youngstown State.

Before I forget, the condescending, dismissive Andy Katz can bite me.

Andy Katz can bite you if it makes you feel better...but unfortunately he's right.

[StlVUFan]

According to Andy Katz, done deal: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7879598/butler-bulldogs-join-atlantic-10-conference-all-sports-source-says

Butler's departure will crush the Horizon League. The Horizon League is left with lower-profile Midwestern schools in Cleveland State, Loyola (Ill.), Detroit, Illinois-Chicago, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Valparaiso, Wright State and Youngstown State.

Before I forget, the condescending, dismissive Andy Katz can bite me.

Andy Katz can bite you if it makes you feel better...but unfortunately he's right.

Whether he's right remains to be seen.

[wh]

Oakland definitely interested in joining HL:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120502/SPORTS0203/205020437/Oakland-definitely-interested-move-Horizon-League?odyssey=tab

[oklahomamick]

I say we forget about who to add to the HL and just move to the Missouri Valley. 

[wh]

Interesting thought from the Butler board:

My understanding is the people who run the Kentucky state university system are pissed off at the OVC for allowing NKU's membership application to be blackballed by the conferences Tennessee member institutions.  They really want Morehead, Murray, and NKU in the same conference. So there is a chance all three could move somewhere as a package deal. 

Two 6-team divisions - north and south. 

[oklahomamick]

can someone insert a poll?  Who would rather join the missouri valley or stay with a horizon league minus butler addition oakland? 

[milldew72]

Interesting thought from the Butler board:

My understanding is the people who run the Kentucky state university system are pissed off at the OVC for allowing NKU's membership application to be blackballed by the conferences Tennessee member institutions.  They really want Morehead, Murray, and NKU in the same conference. So there is a chance all three could move somewhere as a package deal.

Two 6-team divisions - north and south.

The state system would rather see Murray, Morehead and Eastern stay together. No sense in the trio-with-NKU argument if they want to include a new school which isn't even D-I yet and leave a long-standing D-I member, EKU, behind.

[dylanrocks]

Interesting thought from the Butler board:

My understanding is the people who run the Kentucky state university system are pissed off at the OVC for allowing NKU's membership application to be blackballed by the conferences Tennessee member institutions.  They really want Morehead, Murray and NKU in the same conference. So there is a chance all three could move somewhere as a package deal.

Two 6-team divisions - north and south.

Yes, please.

Let's hope our commissioner is thinking outside the box on this one and not contemplating a one-for-one replacement.

[crusaderjoe]

If you're going to consider going to 12 and splitting divisions, it doesn't make sense to saturate the state of Kentucky by itself IMO.  Instead, you may as well go to 14 and try to raid the CAA if becomes unstable and establish a presence in the east coast (PA, MD, and NY), add a school like WKU to move "south", and then split divisions Central and Eastern with seven schools in each.  You could also obtain a decent public private mix that way.  All of this movement is contingent of course on many things, one of which is that the football schools can find places for their football programs while moving to the HL.

[BigDWSU]

If you're going to consider going to 12 and splitting divisions, it doesn't make sense to saturate the state of Kentucky by itself IMO.  Instead, you may as well go to 14 and try to raid the CAA if becomes unstable and establish a presence in the east coast (PA, MD, and NY), add a school like WKU to move "south", and then split divisions Central and Eastern with seven schools in each. 

Western Kentucky has been approached in the past.  They had no interest when they played 1-AA football.  Now that they are true D1, there isn't a chance in hell they would come to the HL.  They have spent a ton of money upgrading their football in the last few years.  They are eyeing a move up to one of the better football conferences.  I've been advocating for the HL to expand into PA.  I think that would even be stretching the boundaries of the HL more than the HL wants.  I don't see any way they would go as far as NY.  These conferences that are expanding into far reaching states are doing it to gain media markets to help them negotiate better TV contracts.  The increased money off sets the extra travel costs.  The HL isn't going to be in the mix for a huge TV contract with any of the teams we are going to able to add to our conference.  Even if we still had Butler and could add Western Ky, Murray State, Oakland, and the top remaining teams for the CAA and we still wouldn't be able to get a good enough TV contract to off set those extra travel costs.   

[wh]

Take a look at this, fellow HL fans.  I'm sure it's the last time it will ever be put up for public display on the butler board:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0ApY4M_YB3zBBdEVjemE4NDEzcTQzaXNrZ0NwOXI4cGc&output=html

Remember all the criticism about our high school gym.  Well lookie here - no fewer than 5 A-10 venues smaller than the ARC, some WAY smaller.  Butler fans won't know who to ridicule first.  Think attendance is low at some of our venues?  Look at some of the numbers in the mighty A-10 - pathetic.  I see now why they call it the Atlantic-10.  They have 10 low mid-major east coast colleges that have duped 4 upstanding midwestern universities with strong athletic programs and good facilities to carry their water for them.  If I was a Butler fan, I'd be having the biggest case of buyer's remorse I've ever had in my life.  Then again, we musn't forget all the potential benefits like making the tournament more often (I forgot they go all the time now), or how about getting a higher seed (I forgot, done that), or being ranked (never mind that), or advancing farther in the tournament (true they're a basket away from having done that yet).  This is the best outcome they could think of in exchange for selling all their sports down the river in terms of travel time, time away from the classroom, limited ability of family and friends to attend away games, etc., etc., etc. 

Butler fans - you made your bed, now go die in it.  In the mean time we'll all be back here in the Midwest struggling along best we can without you.  This whole move is either laughable or pathetic.  I'm just not sure I can figure out which one...

[crusaderjoe]

If you're going to consider going to 12 and splitting divisions, it doesn't make sense to saturate the state of Kentucky by itself IMO.  Instead, you may as well go to 14 and try to raid the CAA if becomes unstable and establish a presence in the east coast (PA, MD, and NY), add a school like WKU to move "south", and then split divisions Central and Eastern with seven schools in each. 

Western Kentucky has been approached in the past.  They had no interest when they played 1-AA football.  Now that they are true D1, there isn't a chance in hell they would come to the HL.  They have spent a ton of money upgrading their football in the last few years.  They are eyeing a move up to one of the better football conferences.  I've been advocating for the HL to expand into PA.  I think that would even be stretching the boundaries of the HL more than the HL wants.  I don't see any way they would go as far as NY.  These conferences that are expanding into far reaching states are doing it to gain media markets to help them negotiate better TV contracts.  The increased money off sets the extra travel costs.  The HL isn't going to be in the mix for a huge TV contract with any of the teams we are going to able to add to our conference.  Even if we still had Butler and could add Western Ky, Murray State, Oakland, and the top remaining teams for the CAA and we still wouldn't be able to get a good enough TV contract to off set those extra travel costs.

As we did for NKU, you and I will have to agree to disagree about WKU.  What happened when WKU was an FCS program is irrelevant, IMO. I certainly understand what you are saying, but conference reshuffling is far more prevalent now than it was then.  If WKU wants to move up conference-wise and let football drive their bus, ok, no problem. But where are they going to go?  The WAC?  It's on its football deathbed.  C-USA?  Considering that they recently expanded by taking an absolute newbie in UTSA, there's no way WKU has a shot with them as everything stands right now.  The MWC?  If C-USA passed on them, so too will they. The MAC?  I guess...

IMO, if the demise of the football WAC causes the Sun Belt to expand into places like New Mexico, or hell Idaho for that matter, even with split divisions this might cause a school like WKU pause for a moment and reflect.  And it's not like other FBS schools aren't parking their football in one conference and placing the rest or nearly the rest of their sports in another to save on travel costs among other things.  See Boise and SDSU as examples.  I wouldn't say there's not a chance in hell, at least not yet. 

As for your other comments, in general I would agree.  I doubt the HL will want to tap into VA, MD or NY.  That is fanciful.  PA is probably stretching it as you mentioned.  However, if the goal is to get to 12, I would think that an eastern movement into any of those states would be more preferable instead of oversaturating Kentucky.

Just my .02.

[Gametime]

Take a look at this, fellow HL fans.  I'm sure it's the last time it will ever be put up for public display on the butler board:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0ApY4M_YB3zBBdEVjemE4NDEzcTQzaXNrZ0NwOXI4cGc&output=html

Remember all the criticism about our high school gym.  Well lookie here - no fewer than 5 A-10 venues smaller than the ARC, some WAY smaller.  Butler fans won't know who to ridicule first.  Think attendance is low at some of our venues?  Look at some of the numbers in the mighty A-10 - pathetic.  I see now why they call it the Atlantic-10.  They have 10 low mid-major east coast colleges that have duped 4 upstanding midwestern universities with strong athletic programs and good facilities to carry their water for them.  If I was a Butler fan, I'd be having the biggest case of buyer's remorse I've ever had in my life.  Then again, we musn't forget all the potential benefits like making the tournament more often (I forgot they go all the time now), or how about getting a higher seed (I forgot, done that), or being ranked (never mind that), or advancing farther in the tournament (true they're a basket away from having done that yet).  This is the best outcome they could think of in exchange for selling all their sports down the river in terms of travel time, time away from the classroom, limited ability of family and friends to attend away games, etc., etc., etc. 

Butler fans - you made your bed, now go die in it.  In the mean time we'll all be back here in the Midwest struggling along best we can without you.  This whole move is either laughable or pathetic.  I'm just not sure I can figure out which one...

While you figure that out, I'll try to figure out if you are pathetic or just have mental issues.