Does Butler's run help us or hurt us?

dcvalpo · March 28, 2011, 06:07:16 PM

On the one hand, this national exposure certainly helps Butler tremendously. One would assume that after two years of this type of success, their recruiting will be improved. Recruits are going to see that they are the real deal and they play in a metro market where players get plenty of attention. Butler will be on tv more, they will get more press, and they are beginning to move from mid-major to major (a la Gonzaga). Maybe Butler is just widening the gap between the rest of the HL and themselves.

On the other hand, Butler's success certainly raises the profile of the Horizon League. Perhaps we will start to see a CAA-like rise in respect for the HL with multiple bids becoming a reality as soon as next year. The fact that we play Butler on a regular basis, and we beat them this season, may be a plus in the eyes of some recruits. Recruits may see us in Butler's league and believe it will bring them more exposure via more tv time, more talk about the HL, etc. Additionally, VCU and BU have certainly taken the respectability of "mid-major" basketball to another level. Finally, we can't overlook the money that will be coming into our program for the next six years because of BU's run. Certainly, that money will make a difference.

So, what do you think? Is their run helping us, hurting us, or not making a difference?

vuweathernerd · March 28, 2011, 07:08:10 PM

i don't really think it's making much of a difference, unless butler is taking recruits away from us. until we can achieve a similar position, we don't have much to gain or lose from butler's success. offering the opportunity to play a final four team twice a year only goes so far in the recruiting process.

wh · March 28, 2011, 08:31:38 PM

The most ridiculous spin I have ever heard in my life goes back to 2002. It is one of the primary reasons given to legitimize the double bye tournament process (and disguise the real reason for the change). It goes something like this: Double bye format = best team in the tournament @ the highest possible seed = more tournament wins = more recognition for the Horizon League = better recruiting opportunities for everyone. I will repeat what I have said many times. There are no crumbs from the Butler table for the rest of us. All this format does is help the team on top stay on top. In fact, it makes recruiting even more difficult. We're now trying to attract players to come play in the league that Butler owns.

zvillehaze · March 28, 2011, 09:41:35 PM

Quote from: wh on March 28, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
The most ridiculous spin I have ever heard in my life goes back to 2002. It is one of the primary reasons given to legitimize the double bye tournament process (and disguise the real reason for the change). It goes something like this: Double bye format = best team in the tournament @ the highest possible seed = more tournament wins = more recognition for the Horizon League = better recruiting opportunities for everyone. I will repeat what I have said many times. There are no crumbs from the Butler table for the rest of us. All this format does is help the team on top stay on top. In fact, it makes recruiting even more difficult. We're now trying to attract players to come play in the league that Butler owns.

If your comments are true and you really feel that Valpo's only chance to ever make the NCAA is to win a conference tourney, then you definitely should have stayed in the Mid-Con. Especially if higher revenues and higher recognition doesn't help you at all. As I've stated before, I know some folks over there, and with the recent attrition, I'm sure I can make a phone call and get you guys back in.

The real lesson learned from 2002 is that you can be good (25-5), beat good teams (Purdue and eventual National Runner-up IU) and still be excluded from the NCAA tourney if you're from a mid-major conference and don't have a stellar RPI. Butler has taken steps to remedy those issues, and as a result, recieved at-large bids in 2003, 2007 and 2009. Easy for you to play the victim card and blame the format for Butler's success, but they've taken the actions needed to get them into the NCAA tourney (or in consideration) whether or not they win the HL tourney.

No other team seems willing to do that. Instead, teams fill their schedules with road pay games they have no chance of winning and balance that with home dates against DIII/NAIA teams. Neither of those do anything to help the league or the team.

Again, if you're not happy with the scraps from the table that Butler is providing, then either do something to contribute to the feast or move back to the Mid-Con where you're guaranteed a spot at the main table.

DMvalpo18 · March 28, 2011, 10:03:12 PM

I have been wondering this same question myself, so i'm glad you brought it up. i think butler's run can only help us, even if it may not be all that much. exposure can help the horizon league gain more national respect, and of course we can credit that to butler. now, more recognition to the horizon only helps if we continue to improve in the horizon and actually contend to win it in the regular season, or win the tournament to get the automatic bid. and we shouldn't be so fast to criticize butler for getting all of the spoils, because that is just not true. the money they get from this goes to the horizon league and is distributed evenly among all of the schools for the next six years. i think butler gets like 30% of it. there's an article about it on cnbc, but it won't let me post links here.

valpopal · March 28, 2011, 10:16:49 PM

Quote from: DMvalpo18 on March 28, 2011, 10:03:12 PM
i think butler gets like 30% of it. there's an article about it on cnbc, but it won't let me post links here.

Not sure why, but I can't seem to post links here either, although I posted the CNBC link earlier in another thread, "The NCAA basketball split."

milanmiracle · March 28, 2011, 10:23:15 PM

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 28, 2011, 09:41:35 PM
Quote from: wh on March 28, 2011, 08:31:38 PM
The most ridiculous spin I have ever heard in my life goes back to 2002. It is one of the primary reasons given to legitimize the double bye tournament process (and disguise the real reason for the change). It goes something like this: Double bye format = best team in the tournament @ the highest possible seed = more tournament wins = more recognition for the Horizon League = better recruiting opportunities for everyone. I will repeat what I have said many times. There are no crumbs from the Butler table for the rest of us. All this format does is help the team on top stay on top. In fact, it makes recruiting even more difficult. We're now trying to attract players to come play in the league that Butler owns.

If your comments are true and you really feel that Valpo's only chance to ever make the NCAA is to win a conference tourney, then you definitely should have stayed in the Mid-Con. Especially if higher revenues and higher recognition doesn't help you at all. As I've stated before, I know some folks over there, and with the recent attrition, I'm sure I can make a phone call and get you guys back in.

The real lesson learned from 2002 is that you can be good (25-5), beat good teams (Purdue and eventual National Runner-up IU) and still be excluded from the NCAA tourney if you're from a mid-major conference and don't have a stellar RPI. Butler has taken steps to remedy those issues, and as a result, recieved at-large bids in 2003, 2007 and 2009. Easy for you to play the victim card and blame the format for Butler's success, but they've taken the actions needed to get them into the NCAA tourney (or in consideration) whether or not they win the HL tourney.

No other team seems willing to do that. Instead, teams fill their schedules with road pay games they have no chance of winning and balance that with home dates against DIII/NAIA teams. Neither of those do anything to help the league or the team.

Again, if you're not happy with the scraps from the table that Butler is providing, then either do something to contribute to the feast or move back to the Mid-Con where you're guaranteed a spot at the main table.

I couldn't agree more. What a fantastic post!

wh · March 28, 2011, 11:08:49 PM

Quote from: zvillehaze on March 28, 2011, 09:41:35 PM
The real lesson learned from 2002 is that you can be good (25-5), beat good teams (Purdue and eventual National Runner-up IU) and still be excluded from the NCAA tourney if you're from a mid-major conference and don't have a stellar RPI.

Your echo of your former A.D.'s cry baby rant sounds exactly like fans from the D-1 Major world (and discussed this morning with Jay Bilas on Mike and Mike) calling to "blow up" the current NCAA tournament format and start over in the aftermath of 11th-seeded VCU's upset win over no.1 seeded Kansas. The same lame logic is being used by people who just can't accept that their precious elitist team's season is over because of one bad game to a clearly inferior upstart opponent that no one has ever heard of and that they would beat 20 times out of the next 20 they play. Hopefully in this case, these rants will be ignored and labeled for they are - sour grapes from highly immature people who think life revolves around them. Exactly what should have been done in 2002.

valpo04 · March 29, 2011, 06:22:08 AM

Quote from: valpopal on March 28, 2011, 10:16:49 PM
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on March 28, 2011, 10:03:12 PM
i think butler gets like 30% of it. there's an article about it on cnbc, but it won't let me post links here.

Not sure why, but I can't seem to post links here either, although I posted the CNBC link earlier in another thread, "The NCAA basketball split."

Sorry about that, as part of the crackdown on spam, I turned off posting of links to new members (and inadvertently did so for everyone.) Should be good to go now.

lowposter · March 29, 2011, 09:35:25 AM

Perhaps in the case of Kansas and other "elite" programs, their attention should turn to hitting free throws and recruiting/playing young men who are upper classmen. Granted the Morningstar kid is now about 26 years of age, but the format that is working for the mid majors is finding the young men who are going to be around for 4 years (perhaps 5 with redshirting) and build a PROGRAM.

The Butler runs helps VU. The program must improve to keep up.

Butler is a proven commodity in the NCAA tournament. The route for VU to the NCAA is simply to win the tournament. The HL will not get an at large bid, until someone other than Butler steps up. That takes time to be proven. Hey, Cleveland State had a very solid season and could only get the NIT. We flamed out and couldnt get an NIT bid.

Just win baby.

lowposter

covufan · March 29, 2011, 01:04:07 PM

Quote from: dcvalpo on March 28, 2011, 06:07:16 PM
On the one hand, this national exposure certainly helps Butler tremendously. One would assume that after two years of this type of success, their recruiting will be improved. Recruits are going to see that they are the real deal and they play in a metro market where players get plenty of attention. Butler will be on tv more, they will get more press, and they are beginning to move from mid-major to major (a la Gonzaga). Maybe Butler is just widening the gap between the rest of the HL and themselves.

On the other hand, Butler's success certainly raises the profile of the Horizon League. Perhaps we will start to see a CAA-like rise in respect for the HL with multiple bids becoming a reality as soon as next year. The fact that we play Butler on a regular basis, and we beat them this season, may be a plus in the eyes of some recruits. Recruits may see us in Butler's league and believe it will bring them more exposure via more tv time, more talk about the HL, etc. Additionally, VCU and BU have certainly taken the respectability of "mid-major" basketball to another level. Finally, we can't overlook the money that will be coming into our program for the next six years because of BU's run. Certainly, that money will make a difference.

So, what do you think? Is their run helping us, hurting us, or not making a difference?

Any exposure of the Horizon League helps all of the teams. Obviously, Butler is getting most of the press right now, especially after two final fours in a row. When recruits hear that we are in the same conference as Butler, they can go "Oh, Butler. I know that team." Good exposure for HL = good exposure for VU.

zvillehaze · March 29, 2011, 09:10:34 PM

Quote from: wh on March 28, 2011, 11:08:49 PM
Your echo of your former A.D.'s cry baby rant sounds exactly like fans from the D-1 Major world

We finally agree ... I hate cry baby rants as much as you do. With that, I'll bow out and let you continue your "explanation" of how everything about the Horizon is horrible and hurts Valpo. If you get a chance, please answer my question of why Valpo would join a league that you despise this much and why they would stay when it's obvious the hill's a bit too steep to climb?

I've been very close to Valpo and Coach Drew for a long time, so I was thrilled when they joined the Horizon. I thought it would be a huge positive for both parties, but I'm disappointed that it hasn't worked out that way. Most people around the league view Valpo's addition as a positive ... it's interesting that Valpo fans like wh don't view it the same way.

rlh · March 29, 2011, 09:24:55 PM

I think most of us certainly view the move to the Horizon League as a positive overall.....I just think that some of our fans didn't ujnderstand how much tougher it was than the old Mid-Con. It's the old "be careful what you wish for" idea. When we were with these schools before, in the even older Mid-Con, the BEST we ever did in basketball was fourth....so things are about what we should expect. The difference is I think we are moving up and getting better and more competitive...and that's a good thing. The double bye still sucks and always will...but that's another topic

blackpantheruwm · March 30, 2011, 12:48:15 AM

I dunno, check your bank account in April and tell me.

lowposter · March 30, 2011, 07:28:11 AM

This is absolutely a positive move to be in the HL.

From this fan's standpoint, the level of competition is much better, the geographics of the conference make sense and there will great rivaltries that will develop over the years.

Personally, I believe the transition for the mens basketball team is about what could be expected. We are competitive. Building a program either 1. Takes time as individual talent is added incrementally that provides constant improvement and which meets the academic goals of the university. 2. Throw the academics under the bus and get the talent necessary.

Butler sets the standard for option 1. My guess is the other programs have a high level also.

We just need to find the young men who fit the profile needed. I am guilty of jumping on the recruiting issue with VU, but for the most part, the program attracts young men that graduate and make solid contributions to the world.

Let's not lose focus on that.

Now, lets go find a 6'9" 240 pound engineering major.

lowposter