Which Schools should the HL invite....pick 3

[HorizonLeagueFan]

It is complete speculation on my part, but geographically, what about Saint Louis University joining the HL?  They were in the league for 10 years or so in the 80s, and have only been in the A10 since 2005.  Do they really like traveling to the eastern time zone for every single away game?   Obviously, they would be a great addition to the HL, have some natural rivalries with Loyola and Detroit and wouldn't have to deal with the eastward expansion of the A-10.

If they ever left the A-10 it would be for the MVC which is a much higher rated conference than the HL and is a better geographic fit than the A-10 or the HL.  They also already have better natural rivals in the A-10 (Butler, Xavier, and Dayton) than Loyola and Detroit could offer.

[vu72]

It is complete speculation on my part, but geographically, what about Saint Louis University joining the HL?  They were in the league for 10 years or so in the 80s, and have only been in the A10 since 2005.  Do they really like traveling to the eastern time zone for every single away game?   Obviously, they would be a great addition to the HL, have some natural rivalries with Loyola and Detroit and wouldn't have to deal with the eastward expansion of the A-10.

If they ever left the A-10 it would be for the MVC which is a much higher rated conference than the HL and is a better geographic fit than the A-10 or the HL.  They also already have better natural rivals in the A-10 (Butler, Xavier, and Dayton) than Loyola and Detroit could offer.

That is not accurate.  The last three years the Horizon has finished ranked 12th in the Sagarins versus the Valley's 9th rank.  The year before that the Valley finished 10th to the Horizon's 11th and the year before they were 8th to our 11th.  Better sure, much higher, no.  These were all years including Butler's great runs as well as last year when they finished fourth.  The Horizon has consistently been near the top 10 or 11 or 12, top third for sure.

[wh]

Robert Morris won't ride the conference carousel; will remain in NEC

Posted: Monday, June 25, 2012 9:03 pm
By Eric Hall Times Sports Staff

At their frequent meetings, Robert Morris athletic director Craig Coleman and his fellow athletics officials from schools in the Northeast Conference allow plenty of time for discussion of conference realignment rumors. They want to be abreast of what schools are going where, and what conference may come looking for NEC schools to claim.
But they won't be spending their time on Robert Morris rumors for the moment.
"We're not looking to go anywhere at this point," Coleman said Monday. "We're happy in the Northeast Conference. We think it's a good league for us."
In recent months, schools from the Horizon League (Butler), Colonial Athletic Association (Virginia Commonwealth, Georgia State and Old Dominion) and America East (Boston University) have changed leagues. Robert Morris has been at least mentioned as replacement candidates in each case, with the Horizon League move receiving the most attention.
"We've seen rumors about the Horizon League looking our way," Coleman said, "but we've had zero conversations with the Horizon League."
While RMU is staying, Quinnipiac and Bryant -- and maybe other NEC schools -- are targets of America East, which was surprised by Boston U's move to the Patriot League.
"We've seen more than just (Quinnipiac and Bryant) mentioned; there are lots of rumors as to what will happen with America East. They could scarf up a school or two from our league. They have been rumored to merge with another conference.
"I don't think anybody anticipated that Boston University was going to the Patriot League. We spend a ridiculous amount of time talking about rumors ... and how it's going to trickle down to us, but this was not one that anyone saw coming."

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I'll translate the article for y'all:


Robert Morris AD:  I'm like totally happy where I am, without a prom date.  Some girls were suggesting that Harry Son-League was going to ask me to go to his Dance, but he hasn't even called me yet.  I am so happy where I am, but if he called me, I'm also like, so available.  Did I mention how happy I am where I am?  Yeah!  And also, CALL ME.

[wh]

I'll translate the article for y'all:


Robert Morris AD:  I'm like totally happy where I am, without a prom date.  Some girls were suggesting that Harry Son-League was going to ask me to go to his Dance, but he hasn't even called me yet.  I am so happy where I am, but if he called me, I'm also like, so available.  Did I mention how happy I am where I am?  Yeah!  And also, CALL ME.

Bingo!

[vu84v2]

St. Louis would only go to the MVC.  This is not only because it is well regarded, but they are right in the middle of a pretty compact geographical conference and the conference tourney has been in St. Louis for a long time.  St. Louis, in my opinion, is also like someone who dates someone but is always looking for a better partner.  Whether the MVC is better than the Horizon is secondary - St. Louis would perceive the MVC as better, partly because many other people would.

If the conference wants to put feelers out to programs like Murray State - great...but my opinion is that they should just get with Oakland and get this deal done.  My opinion is that Oakland is a far more solid program than Robert Morris or any other Summit League teams.

[HorizonLeagueFan]

That is not accurate.  The last three years the Horizon has finished ranked 12th in the Sagarins versus the Valley's 9th rank.  The year before that the Valley finished 10th to the Horizon's 11th and the year before they were 8th to our 11th.  Better sure, much higher, no.  These were all years including Butler's great runs as well as last year when they finished fourth.  The Horizon has consistently been near the top 10 or 11 or 12, top third for sure.

When anyone is comparing conferences, they are using RPI.  The Sagarin rankings are fun for some fans to use, but they are meaningless when it comes to the NCAA.  The MVC is consistently a 5-10 ranked conference, whereas the HL is typically a 10-15 ranked conference.

[wh]

That is not accurate.  The last three years the Horizon has finished ranked 12th in the Sagarins versus the Valley's 9th rank.  The year before that the Valley finished 10th to the Horizon's 11th and the year before they were 8th to our 11th.  Better sure, much higher, no.  These were all years including Butler's great runs as well as last year when they finished fourth.  The Horizon has consistently been near the top 10 or 11 or 12, top third for sure.

When anyone is comparing conferences, they are using RPI.  The Sagarin rankings are fun for some fans to use, but they are meaningless when it comes to the NCAA.  The MVC is consistently a 5-10 ranked conference, whereas the HL is typically a 10-15 ranked conference.

Avg. conf RPI since 98-99 season:

MVC 9.6
HL  13.7

http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/compare?c2=missouri-valley&c1=horizon

In a statistical ranking of 30+ conferences over 14 years, a difference of 4 places is not statistically significant.  It is also a significant stretch to say that the MVC at 9.6 is consistently a "5-10 ranked conference". 

[IndyValpo]

Some additional food for thought..

HL Attendance   
Milwaukee   4,154
Wright State   3,903
Valparaiso   3,383
Cleveland State   3,260
Green Bay   3,064
Ill.-Chicago   2,934
Youngstown State   2,485
Loyola                2,277
Detroit                2,272
   
Potentials   
Bradley                7,640
Murray State   6,144
Denver                5,460
George Mason   5,161
Evansville   5,135
Oral Roberts   4,494
Oakland                3,346
South Dakota St    3,320
UALR                3,222
North Dakota St   3,156
Lipscomb                2,343
Morehead State   2,241
Drexel                2,185
Belmont                2,012
Eastern Kentucky   1,911
South Dakota   1,701
IPFW                1,657
SIU Edwardsville   1,625
Robert Morris   1,441
UMKC                1,308
Western Illinois   1,182
IUPUI                1,133
Saint Francis (PA)      906
Neb. Omaha      897
Chicago State      429

[LaPorteAveApostle]

This is good stuff, Indy--I already referenced it in the discussion of UWM's new dig (small enough to be in the singular, get it?).

I'm wondering your source, though--is it just last year?  Or is it over a few?  That I think would be helpful too, if it's not already.  On the basis of this it would seem anyone who can't get 2K is not really "in our league", so to speak.  And wow--Bradley!  I don't care if Hersey Hawkins just joined AARP...I say bring them on.

[valporun]

IndyValpo, I think Chicago State can hold a lot more than 400 fans, or was this just an average or general look at what the schools listed bring in compared to what they can hold to capacity? The newish arena they play in looks like it can hold a couple thousand people.

[IndyValpo]

From the NCAA....Average attendance...2012 only

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab

[valpotx]

Wow, we only had 3,383 for a HL championship team?  I don't care about the lack of quality competition at home, fans have definitely gone away.  Kind of sad that we could average around 4,500 in the Mid-Con for each of my years in school, but only that much with a quality team in the HL.  I fully understand that it was because I was in school the first few years after the Sweet 16 run, but come on NW Indiana, get out to support another quality run!!

[wh]

According to Indy's numbers, Belmont's avg. of 2012 is below every team in the HL.  I think they just dropped a few rungs on the glamour ladder.

[covufan]

Wow, we only had 3,383 for a HL championship team?  I don't care about the lack of quality competition at home, fans have definitely gone away.  Kind of sad that we could average around 4,500 in the Mid-Con for each of my years in school, but only that much with a quality team in the HL.  I fully understand that it was because I was in school the first few years after the Sweet 16 run, but come on NW Indiana, get out to support another quality run!!

I would expect fans to come out this year - maybe not at the 4500 average, but more than 3400.  I'm going to guess 3900 per game.

[vu72]

As we all know, the attendance numbers are mostly a guess, not scientific or fact based. Not sure why that is but it is what it is.  As for Milwaukee if they really averaged 4154 and their gym seats 3400 then it will be cheek to cheek every game.  Won't happen.  I think unless it is a big draw game (Butler) then people don't want to be all that packed in.  Their numbers are also skewed by having 10,143 at their hosting of Wisconsin.  Their Butler game only drew 6400 and we drew 5800. At the same time their hosting of IUPUI drew 3022 and the UIC game had 3330.  Without the Wisconsin and Butler games next year, their average will be more in line.

If their numbers are at all accurate then games like the Valpo game will be sold out very early.

[covufan]

From the NCAA....Average attendance...2012 only

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab

Notre Dame only averaged 8k per game?  What is up with that.  What does the Joyce hold these days?  11500?  I remember going to games there when 8000 would have been empty.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Good catch on the Wisconsin game skewing numbers.

That's why I think (if i had more time) an average of 3 or 5 years would tell more of a tale than whether or not they had a good home slate one year.

Anybody got spare time?

[vu72]

From the NCAA....Average attendance...2012 only

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab

Notre Dame only averaged 8k per game?  What is up with that.  What does the Joyce hold these days?  11500?  I remember going to games there when 8000 would have been empty.

Yeah, it holds 11,418.  Their non-conference home schedule (think how some Valpo fans complain about OUR non-conference home schedule  ) included exhibitions against St.Xavier and Stonehill College  , and regular season games against Mississippi Valley State, Detroit  , Delaware St., Sam Houston St., Bryant, Maine, and Sacred Heart. Those 9 game must have really gotten the Irish faithful excited!  The Detroit game for example, drew about 6700 or pretty close to half full.

[milanmiracle]

Wow, we only had 3,383 for a HL championship team?  I don't care about the lack of quality competition at home, fans have definitely gone away.  Kind of sad that we could average around 4,500 in the Mid-Con for each of my years in school, but only that much with a quality team in the HL.  I fully understand that it was because I was in school the first few years after the Sweet 16 run, but come on NW Indiana, get out to support another quality run!!

It's really very simple...NCAA tournament or bust. Unless you make the dance you aren't relevant to the average fan and interest is minimal.

[milanmiracle]

From the NCAA....Average attendance...2012 only

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab

Notre Dame only averaged 8k per game?  What is up with that.  What does the Joyce hold these days?  11500?  I remember going to games there when 8000 would have been empty.

Yeah, it holds 11,418.  Their non-conference home schedule (think how some Valpo fans complain about OUR non-conference home schedule  ) included exhibitions against St.Xavier and Stonehill College  , and regular season games against Mississippi Valley State, Detroit  , Delaware St., Sam Houston St., Bryant, Maine, and Sacred Heart. Those 9 game must have really gotten the Irish faithful excited!  The Detroit game for example, drew about 6700 or pretty close to half full.

Yes, that non conference schedule is not very good, but the Big East is much more marketable than the Horizon League. The likes of Georgetown, Syracuse and UConn are just a slightly bigger draw than Cleveland State, Detroit and Butler.

[crusadermoe]

I was impressed by Bradley's  attendance.    Avg. of 6,000+ is higher than Butler if correct.

[blackpantheruwm]

I was impressed by Bradley's  attendance.    Avg. of 6,000+ is higher than Butler if correct.

We played at Bradley in the Bracketbusters one year.  Their fans are big time. We made it to Peoria three hours before game time, and it was the third bar we went into that had enough space for us to sit down. Every other place was packed to the brim.  And the one we went into opened up their second floor for us, which quickly packed in behind us.

Bradley is THE SHOW in Peoria, and it's easy to see why.

[bbtds]

I was impressed by Bradley's  attendance.    Avg. of 6,000+ is higher than Butler if correct.

We played at Bradley in the Bracketbusters one year.  Their fans are big time. We made it to Peoria three hours before game time, and it was the third bar we went into that had enough space for us to sit down. Every other place was packed to the brim.  And the one we went into opened up their second floor for us, which quickly packed in behind us.

Bradley is THE SHOW in Peoria, and it's easy to see why.

You probably got there as the shift at the Caterpillar factories were letting out. There are 10 fairly large Caterpillar buildings in the Greater Peoria area.

Sports is extremely important in Peoria. Which is similar to the way sports is important in Indianapolis. Western Illinois doesn't get much attention and Illinois State in Normal, 40 miles away, gets some. Other than a few minor league teams there isn't much in Peoria except Bradley sports.

[blackpantheruwm]

Which is why Valpo should be packing the ARC, right?