Death Penalty

[bbtds]

http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/football/college/penn-state-to-respond-to-ncaa-demand-within-days/article_d18c9e51-0a8c-55d1-839c-81f41fef5e1a.html

Although there was some negative reaction to Paterno immediately after Sandusky's arrest — the Big Ten dropped Paterno's name from the conference championship trophy where it had been next to that of Amos Alonzo Stagg, who won almost 100 fewer games — the pace has picked up since the Freeh report was released.

Reading the whole story recaps a lot of what has been documented in early posts.

[VULB#62]

With respect to the Clery Act, it's pretty clear that the repercussions across the entire university are starting to snowball.  Going back to your earlier comment bbtds,  "As far as the NCAA punishing PSU in some way, if they can't give PSU the death penalty in football then I feel there must be something done monetarily to punish PSU where it really hurts with money being the real reason behind the cover up and deceit on the part of the administrators." this appears to be happening in more than just the NCAA area.

[bbtds]

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/college/mizzou/paterno-legacy-remains-valid-pinkel-says/article_852838c5-f379-54da-a301-4957b778ccbe.html

This is the stuff that must end. This is not the case of another Pete Rose. Pete Rose hurt the integrity of the game of baseball. He didn't help someone physically or psychologically hurt a child permanently. Joe Paterno lied to a grand jury. He committed a crime by covering up a crime which directly led to several more victims of sexual abuse.

People such as Gary Pinkel from Missouri need to receive a direct message from their alumni, faculty, staff, students and friends that defending Paterno is not to be tolerated. Pinkel should be threatened with losing his job and should issue an apology to the victims of this kind of crime in Missouri and across the nation. 

EDIT: I noticed that one of the St.Louis newspaper sports writers seem to indicate that Gary Pinkel may not have understood what was totally included in the Freeh report and may end up retracting what he said about Paterno. I hope a lesson learned about speaking before you know all the facts. That is something that we all do from time to time.

[bbtds]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/political-fix/mo-lawmaker-condemns-mizzou-coach-s-comments/article_67ff0f4a-d1c6-11e1-96c9-0019bb30f31a.html

Gary Pinkel, Mizzou football coach, has not recanted yet but at least someone in Missouri, Rep. Sara Lampe of Springfield, is calling him on the carpet for his comments.

"Paterno may have been a great coach, but as a man he failed at what mattered – protecting children from a sexual predator," she said. "As the exhaustive investigation into the Penn State scandal by former FBI Director Louis Freeh proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to all but the most sycophantic of Paterno worshipers, Coach Paterno protected and covered up for a serial child rapist and in doing so enabled him to keep raping children for another decade. A great man never would have done such a foul thing. That a great football coach did should be disturbing to everyone.

"Coach Pinkel's defense of the indefensible indicates that he holds the same attitude that allowed the reprehensible situation at Penn State to occur; the attitude that building a successful football program is more important than everything else, including protecting innocent children from rapists."
Pinkel, who has coached Mizzou since 2001, was asked at media days about his reaction to the Penn State scandal and lessons learned. His remarks have been picked up and reported by media outlets across the country.

[bbtds]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20120719/SPORTS/207200312/Could-Big-Ten-commissioner-fire-coaches-Document-floats-possibility?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|IndyStar.com|s

Big Ten commissioner, Jim Delaney, would like the power to fire coaches. It seems he is also floating around the idea of kicking Penn State out of the conference.  Now that is at least covering your exposure in case there are future problems. You wonder if Delany, on his own, could expel Penn State from the Big Ten.

[bbtds]

http://www.freep.com/article/20120719/SPORTS08/120719018/penn-state-big-ten-joe-paterno-jerry-sandusky-sex?odyssey=nav%7Chead

In the Detroit Free Press this story discusses the power that Jim Delany, Commissioner of the Big Ten, could have if the Presidents approve of a certain plan.

I found it extremely interesting the results of a poll about the punishment, if any, that Penn State should receive. Here are the results I saw when I voted.

Bowl ban  5.97%  (268 votes)


TV ban  5.5%  (247 votes)


Death penalty  27.1%  (1,217 votes)


Scholarship losses  7.39%  (332 votes)


Kicked out of Big Ten  9.27%  (416 votes)


All of the above  28.49%  (1,279 votes)


They've been punished enough  16.28%  (731 votes)


Total Votes: 4,490

[vuweathernerd]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20120719/SPORTS/207200312/Could-Big-Ten-commissioner-fire-coaches-Document-floats-possibility?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|IndyStar.com|s

Big Ten commissioner, Jim Delaney, would like the power to fire coaches. It seems he is also floating around the idea of kicking Penn State out of the conference.  Now that is at least covering your exposure in case there are future problems. You wonder if Delany, on his own, could expel Penn State from the Big Ten.

under the current setup, he does not have that power. that power belongs to the committee of presidents and chancellors, i believe it's called. and i don't see them hurrying to give that power to a sole individual, even in light of what has taken place at penn state.

[covufan]

I have not read the Freeh report, nor do I plan to read the whole thing.  My heart goes out to all of the victims and their families.  Cooler heads need to prevail, but punishment for the sake of making someone pay, doesn't make sense.  I realize that most have very strong feelings on this topic, and rightfully so.  We need to respond from reason, not feeling.  The Big Ten and the Big Ten Commissioner may want firing rights, but unless they also have hiring authority, they shouldn't be able to fire.  Stongly influence a school's decision to fire - yes.  Fire a coach without being in the hiring process - no. 

I think punishing the football program and/or athletic department would be fruitless.  The message has been received to all programs - if you see or think you see, or suspect anything with an adult and minor child, report it immediately.  The only way to hurt the university is the all and mighty pocketbook.  The university is indebted to the football program for bringing much attention and $$ to the university over the last 40+ years.  The current players and coaches should not have to pay for any misguided problems of previous administrations, both football and in the PSU President's office. I don't know if the NCAA can fine a university for what happened off the field here, but if it were me, I would look at the economic impact the death penalty might have, and start there for the fine. 

What really needs to happen is the supporters, alumni, and future alumni of PSU to make an economic effort to remove pledges to the university, and put the funds to use for prevention of pedophiles, and ethics and morality lessons learned.  We need to learn from this scandal - not only to not repeat, but to teach others about ethics, morality, and how each of us does have an impact.  If we choose to hide our head or turn the other way, we could allow another problem like this scandal.   

[bbtds]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20120722/SPORTS/207220344/Penn-State-president-orders-Paterno-statue-removal?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|IndyStar.com

Penn State will be removing the Joe Paterno statue.

Interesting that even with Gary Pinkel's help the statue will not stay up.

"I believe that, were it to remain, the statue will be a recurring wound to the multitude of individuals across the nation and beyond who have been the victims of child abuse," Erickson said in a statement released at 7 a.m. Sunday.

He said Paterno's name will remain on the campus library because it "symbolizes the substantial and lasting contributions to the academic life and educational excellence that the Paterno family has made to Penn State University."

But Paterno still has plenty of fans, and Penn State's decision to remove the monument won't sit well with them. One student even vowed to "chain myself to that statue" if there was an attempt to remove it.

The statue, nearly 7 feet tall and weighing more than 900 pounds, was built in 2001 in honor of Paterno's record-setting 324th Division 1 coaching victory and his "contributions to the university."

[valpo04]

Oh, I knew, and said, when it first came out in November, that they all knew.  They had to--or why would Paterno's one-time protegé retire a long time before the mentor?  That was all the proof I needed that not only was he guilty, but that his superiors knew, and coerced an early retirement.

Still--the NCAA doesn't have jurisdiction here.  Talk of anything--let alone the "death penalty"--is risible.

Tell you what--if the NCAA does anything to PSU football, then I'll do enough fundraising to have the new football stadium named after me.

NCAA to announce "unprecedented" penalties against Penn State football tomorrow. 

Let's get this LaPorteAveApostle fundraiser underway!

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Ridiculous.  Etc. etc.  Still, the mob wants blood, and they don't care whose.

Nevertheless, I'm going to start fundraising by buying a ton of lottery tix.

[VULB#62]

Apostle -- raising funds for who???  Are you a PSU apologist?  Please be more precise in your replies.

[bbtds]

Apostle -- raising funds for who???  Are you a PSU apologist?  Please be more precise in your replies.

Earlier in the thread Apostle said

Tell you what--if the NCAA does anything to PSU football, then I'll do enough fundraising to have the new football stadium named after me.

I believe he meant Beaver Stadium in (Un)Happy Valley.

[SadersofthelostArc]

Well, LaPorte....your thoughts?

[crusaderjoe]

Oh, I knew, and said, when it first came out in November, that they all knew.  They had to--or why would Paterno's one-time protegé retire a long time before the mentor?  That was all the proof I needed that not only was he guilty, but that his superiors knew, and coerced an early retirement.

Still--the NCAA doesn't have jurisdiction here.  Talk of anything--let alone the "death penalty"--is risible.

Tell you what--if the NCAA does anything to PSU football, then I'll do enough fundraising to have the new football stadium named after me.

NCAA to announce "unprecedented" penalties against Penn State football tomorrow. 

Let's get this LaPorteAveApostle fundraiser underway!

Now the sanctions have been released, IMO in reading between the lines, the "death penalty" will never again be used by the NCAA, at least as SMU knew it.

[valporun]

I feel that the only reason PSU didn't get seasons suspended is due to the fact that they haven't really played any games since 1997 now. The donors will punish the team with not coming to games now, and to be honest, the Bill O'Brien era was going to be a slow growth to anything prominent anyway. The suspension of any upcoming seasons wouldn't have been a real punishment under a new coach and young players who weren't there. Allowing current players to transfer and play immediately looks appropriate, if they are incoming freshmen, but players from the last three years shouldn't get such leeway. Plus, the football program gets ZERO revenue from ANY BiG Ten bowl games over those four years, so the program loses millions, on top of the $60M the university has to pay out to child sex abuse programs, and any lawsuits that may come from the true victims of the PSU scandal.

[bbtds]

It does seem that you couldn't make it much worse, if any worse, for Penn State even using the death penalty. The punishment is harsh and seems to fit the crime. It was needed to show the public that the NCAA took this loss of institutional control extremely serious and puts notice out that no one is above the law of the NCAA.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I can honestly say that I am stunned.  It's just sad that now people who had no tie to this--hell, kids who weren't even born in 1998 but grow up wanting to be a Lion--have to pay the freight.  Did Jerry Sandusky victimize children, or was it actually Bill O'Brien?

To go back to Brian Cook's astute observation: when making people pay, the legal system has a laser-aimed bazooka, whereas the NCAA has a BB gun with a wonky sight.  Well, that might rather be more like a shotgun loaded with buck with a bent barrel (and a hell of a kick), but still. 

I'm just over the NCAA now.  The mob screaming for blood is one thing, but suits like the NCAA are supposed to be above that--not above such "niceties" like "due process". 

Let's face two facts:  this action proves that this is not nearly so much about the protection of children as it is about seeming to be hard on anyone that has anything to do with abusing children. 

The other fact is we live in a society that today permits (nay, encourages!) absolutely every single kind of sexual perversion known to man--save one.  And so only in applying an absolutely scorched-earth policy of retribution against anyone who violates this final, solitary sexual taboo, is a post-liberal society able to convince itself that it is still moral, and continue to sleep at night.

[crusaderjoe]

It does seem that you couldn't make it much worse, if any worse, for Penn State even using the death penalty. The punishment is harsh and seems to fit the crime. It was needed to show the public that the NCAA took this loss of institutional control extremely serious and puts notice out that no one is above the law of the NCAA.

I suppose time will tell how much of an impact these sanctions will have and whether the death penalty would have been worse or better than what PSU was given today.  Just remember that it took SMU 22 years to reach a bowl game after they were given the death penalty.  In the Mid 90's, Miami was sanctioned pretty severely (although not as severely as PSU) for a major Pell Grant scandal but was not given the death penalty.  Six years later, the 'Canes won the national championship.

[vuweathernerd]

jesse palmer was on espn this morning talking about how this is not really a 4 year ban, but essentially an 8 year post-season ban due to the difficulty that it's going to create for o'brien to recruit during this next four year period. and that really is the case - trying to recruit based on a limited opportunity for exposure and success is going to be quite the challenge.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Good point.


Let me spell this out:  10 young men a year, for three years, will not have the opportunity to play D1 FB, that they otherwise would have.  Not because of anything they've done. 


Would love for bbtds or any of the crucify-PSU crowd to justify that one for me.

[bbtds]

Good point.


Let me spell this out:  10 young men a year, for three years, will not have the opportunity to play D1 FB, that they otherwise would have.  Not because of anything they've done. 


Would love for bbtds or any of the crucify-PSU crowd to justify that one for me.

Oh you really asked for it!!!

It's only 10 out of the 300 or so that the NCAA penalizes all NCAA schools who have committed infractions in any given year. If we are so upset with the NCAA taking away legitimate student athlete scholarships due to the infractions of the schools' staff and administrators why weren't you outraged last year or two years before when probably more scholarships were taken away by the NCAA because more schools had committed violations (Ohio State, USC, UCLA, Miami etc.). Why all of a sudden are you so upset by the 10 scholarships taken away from student athletes at PSU that can transfer to another school without sitting out a year. Those 10 student athletes at Penn State actually have a significant advantage over those that lost scholarships at OSU, USC, Miami, etc. There really is no loss at all except for the institution of Penn State. Why do you cry at all for those 10 at Penn State??

[LaPorteAveApostle]

No, you're the one asking for it, friend!

I think "loss of scholarships" is silly enough because it penalizes kids that had nothing to do with the situation.  It's ESPECIALLY egregious because there's NO NCAA VIOLATION here (although maybe that justifies not giving them due process?).

What you haven't yet noticed is that this is a ZERO-SUM GAME.  These hypothetical 10 kids can of course go elsewhere--where they will take other kids' scholarships, and so it will trickle down, so that 10 low-level FBS will play FCS, whose 10 displaced will do DII, etc., etc., while the NCAA, which makes billions of dollars off the backs (and arms and legs) off unpaid kids, doesn't see a hit.

So explain:  how does depriving these 10 kids of a free ride punish Jerry Sandusky and the long-gone PSU administration?  In a larger sense, how does a future penalty like loss of scholarships, paid by someone else (not Reggie Bush!), at all prevent people from taking the present chance?

[vuweathernerd]

just to throw this in - you can make the argument that a violation did occur, because the ncaa controls punishments for lack of institutional control. clearly that happened here. the institution lost control of members of the football staff and the university administration, with frightening consequences.

also, it's not 10 scholarships. it's 10 initial-year scholarships, dropping penn state's allotment from 25 to 15. they are also dropping 10 others per year for the next 4 years. so all told, it's 80 scholarships that the team will lose. from the espn article:

Penn State also must reduce 10 initial and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period.

[VULB#62]

PSU football is toasted beyond belief. The death penalty is, IMO, a wrist slap in comparison. PSU might as well forget about wasting FB scholarship on kids who will not be competitive in the Big 10 for the next decade.  After transfers and defecting recruits and the inability of O'Brian to land any quality players, the NCAA has sentenced PSU to a series of games, both at home and on the road, over the next 4-8 years that will make them the laughingstock of FBS football.  And each year it will be like Ground Hog day.  It's kind of like hanging them, then, putting them in the electric chair to make sure they killed them.

Rather, PSU should suspend all future scholarships (honor the present ones, of course -- IF the kids even hang around) and declare for non-scholarship FCS.  Heck the PFL could use a presence in Pennsylvania.  At least they would be able to compete.  Problem for PFL schools is that at PSU home games the echo caused by 99,999 empty seats in Beaver stadium might be an insurmountable home field advantage.