Death Penalty

[bbtds]

Do you agree that in some way the lust that Valpo has for NCAA tournament money helped perpetuate the need for BCS schools, such as Penn State, to have a giant figure head like Joe Paterno, which helped the money machine which was Penn State football that grew so big that JoePa was "too big to fail," to borrow a phrase from the economic world, and that in some small way Valpo has contributed to this problem?

[crusaderjoe]

Do you agree that in some way the lust that Valpo has for NCAA tournament money helped perpetuate the need for BCS schools, such as Penn State, to have a giant figure head like Joe Paterno, which helped the money machine which was Penn State football that grew so big that JoePa was "too big to fail," to borrow a phrase from the economic world, and that in some small way Valpo has contributed to this problem?

Aspetta un minuto...Valpo has a lust for NCAA tournament money?  Huh?  Please explain.

What's the famous quote that has been bounced around this board from time to time over the last decade on VU message boards regarding the hiring of Homer Drew by Alan Harre in the late 80's?  "You'll never get fired for losing."

While the then acting university President, head basketball coach and acting Athletic Director have all changed since that time, I highly doubt that mindset at Valpo has changed either to the point where coaches would need to act to win at all costs, even with 7 NCAA tournament appearances.  I mean think about it--just on facilities alone, if VU was lusting for NCAA tournament money, wouldn't they have replaced their hot garbage basketball facility by now so that the university could put itself in the best position to make even more NCAA appearances?

Sorry, not following you on this one.  Lust for NCAA tournament money doesn't sound like a VU institutional value to me given the lack of facility commitment and the historic lack of a "win at all costs" mentality.

[FWalum]

Have waited a while to tackle this subject.  I find myself wondering about the repercussions affecting the innocents with this NCAA decision.  I feel that the sanctions came down too quickly and attack the symptoms rather than the actual causes (read as greed, TV money, BCS etc.).  Have talked to a friend who works for one of the big sports marketing companies and he says that the sanctions will hurt the non revenue sports (read as the actual student athletes at PSU) very significantly.  He also agrees that the NCAA has acted too quickly and without real precedent. Imagine if the NCAA starts digging into the actions of every former coach from all D1 schools....  Have they opened Pandora's box?

[VULB#62]

understand that PSU administration capitulated to the NCAA under duress:  i.e., sign off on the letter or the program would be shut down completely for multiple years.    Kind of like " resign or we'll fire you."  Come to think of it, wasn't that the choice Paterno was offered? 

[vuweathernerd]

understand that PSU administration capitulated to the NCAA under duress:  i.e., sign off on the letter or the program would be shut down completely for multiple years.    Kind of like " resign or we'll fire you."  Come to think of it, wasn't that the choice Paterno was offered? 

not sure joepa ever got that choice. just the note with the number to call telling him he was gone. i don't care what happened - that was absolutely a terrible way to handle things.

[StlVUFan]

It is not at all out of the question that Valpo and every other mid-major at least contributes to this atmosphere, though primarily as outsiders envying the big time.  I don't know how much we actually fall into this issue, but every time we gush over Dick Vitale at the ARC, every time we covet airtime on the 4-letter network, every time we grouse about losing out on high profile recruits, every time we grew bitter over Brandon Wood wanting to move up to the big time and snubbing us in the process, to give but a few examples, we validate the very culture that allows Sandusky to happen.  It surely flourishes without our measly help, don't get me wrong, but we are not immune from that very same mindset.

As for the other stuff, to be perfectly honest I am having a lot of trouble giving a rip about dangerous precedents and #TeamOutlaw (my God) and so forth.  I'm too busy thinking about the people who are still trying to recover from child rape.  It will take them a life time to get past it.  #TeamOutlaw is getting off easy by comparison.

[bbtds]

It is not at all out of the question that Valpo and every other mid-major at least contributes to this atmosphere, though primarily as outsiders envying the big time.  I don't know how much we actually fall into this issue, but every time we gush over Dick Vitale at the ARC, every time we covet airtime on the 4-letter network, every time we grouse about losing out on high profile recruits, every time we grew bitter over Brandon Wood wanting to move up to the big time and snubbing us in the process, to give but a few examples, we validate the very culture that allows Sandusky to happen.  It surely flourishes without our measly help, don't get me wrong, but we are not immune from that very same mindset.

As for the other stuff, to be perfectly honest I am having a lot of trouble giving a rip about dangerous precedents and #TeamOutlaw (my God) and so forth.  I'm too busy thinking about the people who are still trying to recover from child rape.  It will take them a life time to get past it.  #TeamOutlaw is getting off easy by comparison.

That is exactly what I was thinking. Thank you, stlvufan, for putting it in much more elegant language.

As far as precedents, how long did the precedent of giving out the death penalty, as in SMU's case, last?

[valpo64]

PSU had a "university problem" regarding priorities...the University needed to be punished, with an emphasis on their football program...let the chips fall where they may.  When one has a "University problem" the entire school gets hit as it should.  It's unfortunate the innocent student athletes , students, and others tied to the school get hurt also, but that is the way it should be...THE UNIVERSITY GETS PUNISHED, including all who may be affiliated with it.

Let's not get a guilt feeling as a member of the NCAA...if our school's priorities are in order, it's NOT OUR PROBLEM!  Let's get over it and move on!!

[VULB#62]

While I agree that the NCAA has an obligation to do their investigation and determine what penalties under their purview PSU deserves, I also believe that those penalties should be a result of due process.  Here in a recent post on ESPN is the take of one source within the Freeh group on the NCAA's misuse of their document [note: and the denial of due process]:

ESPN 7/28/12

A source familiar with the investigation into Penn State's response to former assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky's child sex abuse scandal is speaking out against the NCAA.

According to The Chronicle of Higher Education, a person connected to the Freeh report, which condemned Penn State's handling of Sandusky's abuse, said the NCAA should not have based its harsh sanctions against the university on the investigation.

"That document was not meant to be used as the sole piece, or the large piece, of the NCAA's decision making," the source told The Chronicle on Thursday. "It was meant to be a mechanism to help Penn State move forward. To be used otherwise creates an obstacle to the institution changing."

Further on the article states:

NCAA president Mark Emmert said the organization relied on the Freeh report when coming up with those penalties because it was "vastly more involved and thorough than any investigation we've ever conducted."

The Chronicle's source, however, said that should not have been the case.

"The Freeh team reviewed how Penn State operated, not how they worked within the NCAA's system," the source told The Chronicle. "The NCAA's job is to investigate whether Penn State broke its rules and whether it gained a competitive advantage in doing so."

The source also told The Chronicle that since the Freeh report didn't interview Paterno, Schultz or Curley, the NCAA should have furthered the investigation to see "how far this went."

"The NCAA took this report and ran with it without further exploration," the source said. "If you really wanted to show there was a nexus to cover up, interview the coaches. See their knowledge and culpability ..."

The failure to do so, according to the source, has damaged Penn State.

"The sanctions against Penn State were really overwhelming, and no one imagined the report being used to do that," the person told The Chronicle. "People thought it would help others draw conclusions about what happened and provide a guide for leaders to be able to identify minefields and navigate through them.

"Instead, Emmert took the report and used Penn State's own resources to do them in. The institution is made of people, too. And they don't deserve this."

Here's the link:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8207795/report-freeh-report-source-criticizes-ncaa-penalties-penn-state-nittany-lions

[StlVUFan]

And the Freeh Commission has denied that any of it's people have said that, FWIW.

[StlVUFan]

Another observation I like a lot: a few have chuckled at the standard NCAA charge of "Lack of Institutional Control" being thrown at PSU, when it is patently obvious that evil was allowed to flourish there *precisely* because they had Full Institutional Control to make sure that it could flourish.  True anarchy is amoral.  Full control can be either good OR evil.  Clearly in this case it was the latter.

Old Testament ethos also provides a strong precedent that -- at least in cases like this -- guilt is communal.  The fact that it is usually borne by at most a handful of individual is called scapegoating, but deep down they always understood that it truly belongs to everyone.

[VULB#62]

And the Freeh Commission has denied that any of it's people have said that, FWIW.

Noted that in the article as well.  It's all politics.  Leak and deny. But it's water over the dam and won't change anything in Happy Valley. However, I believe my observation on the lack of due process, by an organization that is built on micro-processes and documented procedures by the truck-load,  remains valid.  And now we move on.

Agree with your follow-up post also that control can be for the good or for the opposite.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[StlVUFan]

Sorry for my selective skimming on that last post, missed that you had already alluded to that.

Just found a webpage that said what I was trying to say in comic artistic form (and much more poignantly):

http://media.nola.com/opinions_impact/photo/sk072512-colorjpg-fed734a9d2729f57.jpg

[crusaderjoe]

PSU had a "university problem" regarding priorities...the University needed to be punished, with an emphasis on their football program...let the chips fall where they may.  When one has a "University problem" the entire school gets hit as it should.  It's unfortunate the innocent student athletes , students, and others tied to the school get hurt also, but that is the way it should be...THE UNIVERSITY GETS PUNISHED, including all who may be affiliated with it.

Let's not get a guilt feeling as a member of the NCAA...if our school's priorities are in order, it's NOT OUR PROBLEM!  Let's get over it and move on!!

Bingo, and give that man a CI-GAR.

I would assume then that those of you who believe that VU contributes or at least has the ability to contribute through its athletic programs to the cultural problem that existed at Penn State will immediately seek the resignation of Bryce Drew.  I mean, after all, the University needs to stop fueling the Drew's "family dynasty status" over Valparaiso basketball. It is too dangerous given what happened in Happy Valley. Penn State allowed Joe Paterno to turn into a figurehead and we all saw what happened.  By having a Drew at the helm of Valparaiso basketball for nearly a quarter century, we're indirectly giving validation to an environment that can help fester the culture that existed at Penn State.

Right?

Who on this board will be the first to write the AD requesting Bryce Drew's dismissal as head basketball coach based on the forgoing?

Still waiting to hear how VU lusts for NCAA tournament money by the way...

[StlVUFan]

It is a temptation, you have to admit.

And, do you really think VU *doesn't* lust after NCAA tourney money???  Or are you saying "lust" is too strong a word?  Who knows whether it is or it isn't?

You're conflating two different problems into one.  There's the scandal, which led to dismissal (if due process were even possible back then in State College, it would have yielded the same result).  Then there's the culture.  You don't overthrow the culture by lobbing A-bombs at it.  You stand up and tell the truth about the culture and hope that acts as disinfectant.

Actually, I think it's less of a temptation at a school like Valpo than it is at a big-time place like PSU, because the gap between us and "big-time" is so huge it would take so much cheating that it would be too risky.  There's a glass ceiling at work here, culturally, that kind of insulates us from the slimier aspects of that culture.  No one cares enough to shield us from the fallout if we were to go down that road.  The 4-letter network has no huge deal with us that would keep it from being objective.  In the age of Twitter, we'd be breaking news for all the wrong reasons.

But wait... aren't we striving for big-time performance?  Hello!  And we are gaining on it over the past couple of years.  As we get closer to the glass ceiling, thoughts of breaking it linger in our minds.  Hello, temptation my old friend...

[SadersofthelostArc]

Guys, if you can't see how Sandusky's child abuse was a direct result of Homer's bloodlust for tournament money, then I can't help you.  The first victim that came to light was in 1998...anyone else remember something big happening in the sports world in 1998?  Oh, that's right....the Shot.  And who took the Shot?  Bryce Drew.  Well lookey there...turn off the lights, party's over boys. 

The question is...when all is said and done, will Valpo be given the death penalty? 

[StlVUFan]

So, you're saying Valpo is immune from any and all temptation to make the basketball program bigger than the university and the community?

If you'll read carefully, this is the only thing I'm disputing here.

[SadersofthelostArc]

Well, bbtds was more of the catalyst for my comments, but I think the entire conversation in the context of Penn State is fairly absurd.  I think Valpo contributed to this PSU problem exactly 0%.


Any arm of any organization could at some point be tempted to become bigger than the head.  That's human nature. 

[StlVUFan]

Well, bbtds was more of the catalyst for my comments, but I think the entire conversation in the context of Penn State is fairly absurd.  I think Valpo contributed to this PSU problem exactly 0%.


Any arm of any organization could at some point be tempted to become bigger than the head.  That's human nature. 

Yeah, I was going to also point out that I didn't start this angle, but merely responded much less definitively when someone else raised the possibility.

I think the rabid fans among us should at least admit that we covet -- deep down inside -- the kind of exposure and recruiting games that come with being big-time.  I know we most likely want to get there "the right way", not by cutting corners, but remember: so did PSU.  That was part of their whole mystique.

One thing that could be pointed out in favor of your point is that I think we know Homer Drew never "ran" VU the way Paterno "ran" PSU.  Just think back to all the times we heard rumors that the BOT (or whatever it's called) of VU made life a bit difficult for Homer.  We now know that that never happened at PSU.  Here's the thing, though: VU never achieved national recognition to the same degree.  The single thing that you could point to where VU did achieve some national recognition turns out to be the one where apparently the University held the team back from taking full advantage of it.

Honestly, I don't think anyone came close to suggesting here that VU is prime hunting ground for a child predator.  The only point that is being made is that the same culture that values wins over academics and integrity that thrives at big schools like PSU is one that little schools like VU support through membership in the NCAA (whose hands are far from clean in this) and more importantly, through welcoming ESPN into the house, clamoring for more exposure, thrilled everytime our school name gets mentioned there and in the national sports media in general, and of course crave that magical tournament run under the bright lights.

None of that means we are dirty ourselves, but it does mean we are competing with the dirty.  And you can't tell me that fans (being one, I know this myself) and the team don't wish for some way to level the playing field and topple the big boys.  The hard truth is that it is excruciatingly hard to do that without getting a little bit dirty.  I think we underestimate just how tempting it is.

For that matter, you know darn well that PSU is hardly unique.  The particular scandal is perhaps rare (allegedly not unique though), but the underlying culture that enables it is very common at the higher levels and the only thing that keeps Valpo from not giving in to temptation (apart from conscience and commitment to principle) is the fact that cheating just a little bit (discreetly) would not be worth it.  We don't have the power and prestige to make sure it would not be found out.  In fact, VU may well be a good example of sports culture where sports really isn't the number one priority.  But again, PSU set out to be the very same thing.

At the same time, if the NCAA were to truly clean up athletics (for real, not cynically and selectively), VU might well suffer as a result because the only way to clean it up is to blow it up and start over.  There might be no NCAA tournament to even play for.  The mind reels to comprehend the fallout, even at Valpo.  Food for thought.

We aren't competing in a vacuum, here.

[bbtds]

This is very much what I'm trying to get across about Valpo contributing to the overall issue of hypocrisy in the NCAA which lead to the scandal and tragedy at Penn State.

I didn't see Valpo as falling into any of the traps that Penn State did. That Valpo would be guilty of running a dirty program or that any of Valpo's coaches be dismissed.

What I see as Valpo contributing to the whole issue in the NCAA is the grab at all the big dollars that the NCAA generates through the big time programs. It's through this greed that Valpo helps perpetuate the need for programs such as Ohio State, USC, UConn, etc to cheat or accept athletes who aren't there to get an education so that the big time programs keep generating the money needed to make Valpo and many other similar type schools desire to grab their portion of the money and set up schools like Penn State to ignore an issue when something that is outrageously wrong is discovered for the sake of the program's need to keep generating the big money.

It's a very small portion of the blame but collectively Valpo and similar schools, contribute to the greed that drives the overall problem in the NCAA that leads to situations such as what happened at Penn State.

[vu72]

This is very much what I'm trying to get across about Valpo contributing to the overall issue of hypocrisy in the NCAA which lead to the scandal and tragedy at Penn State.

I didn't see Valpo as falling into any of the traps that Penn State did. That Valpo would be guilty of running a dirty program or that any of Valpo's coaches be dismissed.

What I see as Valpo contributing to the whole issue in the NCAA is the grab at all the big dollars that the NCAA generates through the big time programs. It's through this greed that Valpo helps perpetuate the need for programs such as Ohio State, USC, UConn, etc to cheat or accept athletes who aren't there to get an education so that the big time programs keep generating the money needed to make Valpo and many other similar type schools desire to grab their portion of the money and set up schools like Penn State to ignore an issue when something that is outrageously wrong is discovered for the sake of the program's need to keep generating the big money.

It's a very small portion of the blame but collectively Valpo and similar schools, contribute to the greed that drives the overall problem in the NCAA that leads to situations such as what happened at Penn State.

This is a major stretch.  So what the answer?  D3? Well setshot, for the good of all who just want to see Valpo perform at a high level, and yes, suceed at that level too, let's hope not.

[bbtds]

This is a major stretch.  So what the answer?  D3? Well setshot, for the good of all who just want to see Valpo perform at a high level, and yes, suceed at that level too, let's hope not.

I believe the answer is exactly what stlvufan said. Tear the whole of college athletics down and start over. The real problem is that the punishment to Penn State might get some programs to scale back their cheating and abuse of the student athletes but down the road there will be another program that has a situation very similar to Penn State's happen because they will be protecting the all mighty dollars generated by their program and there will be real victims, like the children in the Penn State situation who never recover and suffer greatly.

[VULB#62]

This is a major stretch.  So what the answer?  D3? Well setshot, for the good of all who just want to see Valpo perform at a high level, and yes, suceed at that level too, let's hope not.

I believe the answer is exactly what stlvufan said. Tear the whole of college athletics down and start over. The real problem is that the punishment to Penn State might get some programs to scale back their cheating and abuse of the student athletes but down the road there will be another program that has a situation very similar to Penn State's happen because they will be protecting the all mighty dollars generated by their program and there will be real victims, like the children in the Penn State situation who never recover and suffer greatly.

My problem with this string is that we are mixing two different concerns:  (1) The NCAA big business environment (which VU has no control over) and (2) Valpo's approach to athletics as a private mid-major (which it does have control over).  Theoretically, what Stlvufan and bbtds are saying is doing the right thing the right way.  But VU by itself can't tear down the whole of college athletics and start it over. Does our failure to do that make us hypocrites?  Of course, VU can participate in that process (if it ever gets going), but its clout is only that of a mid-major, and as alluded to earlier, VU will still get clobbered for being a part of the "NCAA hypocrisy" as long as it remains in D-I.  If Valpo wants to disassociate itself from the hypocrisy that some on this forum have linked it to, then what 72 stated is the only immediate solution it has available -- D-III. 

Bottom line IMO is that Valpo can't change the NCAA D-I world, so it has two options:  (1) run the most transparent, squeakiest clean D-I program in the country in the face of the issues elaborated upon below, or (2) remove itself from that platform and participate on a platform where those issues seldom exist because the corruption of money is pretty much taken off the table.  However, I'm not sure many on this forum would like to give up TV exposure on the four letter network, or give up seeing VU scores on crawlers, or give up the bragging rights associated with competing against national BB powers.  So we're left with option 1 -- and I don't see the hypocrisy in that. 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

+1 internetz to you, my friend 62.  You win again!

[StlVUFan]

This is a major stretch.  So what the answer?  D3? Well setshot, for the good of all who just want to see Valpo perform at a high level, and yes, suceed at that level too, let's hope not.

I believe the answer is exactly what stlvufan said. Tear the whole of college athletics down and start over. The real problem is that the punishment to Penn State might get some programs to scale back their cheating and abuse of the student athletes but down the road there will be another program that has a situation very similar to Penn State's happen because they will be protecting the all mighty dollars generated by their program and there will be real victims, like the children in the Penn State situation who never recover and suffer greatly.

My problem with this string is that we are mixing two different concerns:  (1) The NCAA big business environment (which VU has no control over) and (2) Valpo's approach to athletics as a private mid-major (which it does have control over).  Theoretically, what Stlvufan and bbtds are saying is doing the right thing the right way.  But VU by itself can't tear down the whole of college athletics and start it over. Does our failure to do that make us hypocrites?  Of course, VU can participate in that process (if it ever gets going), but its clout is only that of a mid-major, and as alluded to earlier, VU will still get clobbered for being a part of the "NCAA hypocrisy" as long as it remains in D-I.  If Valpo wants to disassociate itself from the hypocrisy that some on this forum have linked it to, then what 72 stated is the only immediate solution it has available -- D-III. 

Bottom line IMO is that Valpo can't change the NCAA D-I world, so it has two options:  (1) run the most transparent, squeakiest clean D-I program in the country in the face of the issues elaborated upon below, or (2) remove itself from that platform and participate on a platform where those issues seldom exist because the corruption of money is pretty much taken off the table.  However, I'm not sure many on this forum would like to give up TV exposure on the four letter network, or give up seeing VU scores on crawlers, or give up the bragging rights associated with competing against national BB powers.  So we're left with option 1 -- and I don't see the hypocrisy in that. 

Yes Valpo has no control over (1), but it does participate in it.  No, I'm not calling for Valpo to leave D-I, however if they can't reconcile playing it clean with striving to win NCAA tourney games, then maybe they should.  In no sense am I saying they can't or won't successfully negotiate that balance.

I think it's bold to choose option (1) -- as long as you are truly committed to it, and that includes avoiding the cult of personality that enveloped PSU.  So far I believe VU has avoided that.  But having chosen that option, and participating in the big business of Division I collegiate athletics and the Sportz Bubble that surrounds it, VU has a burden to bear.  I'm not exactly sure what all its responsibilities are, but I'm sure setting a good example is part of it.