Poll #2 - Predict 3 new additions

[IndyValpo]

OK, Oakland, Murray State and Belmont were runaway winners of who we thought the HL should add.....who will actually join?  Pick 3

[VULB#62]

I voted but aside from Oakland I really didn't have a clue.

[Cliston94]

To be honest with you, I don't know if the HL has very many GOOD expansion options. I doubt we'd get Murray State, by far the best option, because of its long association with the OVC, where it has all of its natural rivalries. Ditto for Morehead State and Eastern Kentucky, neither of which are as good an option as Murray.

No way in hell we'll get Northern Illinois, because NIU has FBS football and will stay in the MAC for that reason, if no other.

We're not getting George Mason or Drexel, who are both in a more prestigious league than the HL.

Oakland? Probably the best program we have a realistic chance to get, but I'm not excited about OU.

Evansville and Bradley? No way either one of them is leaving the MVC for the HL.

As to the others, why would we want any of them? None of them are "name" schools, even at the mid-major level. I don't want to water down the league with third-tier programs like IUPUI or IPFW, who have neither the facilities nor the fan followings to be top-level members who really bring any value to the league.

In short, I think the Horizon League really gains nothing by adding any of the teams that it has a realistic chance to add. I think we should stay with the nine schools we've got. We're not going to get anybody that has Butler's prestige (or better), so any move we might make does not achieve any useful purpose. And if we end up with a 16-game conference schedule, as compared to 18, that's two more quality nonconference games each team can add to the schedule. That will do far more for our RPI, collectively and individually, than adding a low-level team to the league. Let's not add members who bring no real value just for the sake of adding more members.

[vuweathernerd]

To be honest with you, I don't know if the HL has very many GOOD expansion options. I doubt we'd get Murray State, by far the best option, because of its long association with the OVC, where it has all of its natural rivalries. Ditto for Morehead State and Eastern Kentucky, neither of which are as good an option as Murray.

No way in hell we'll get Northern Illinois, because NIU has FBS football and will stay in the MAC for that reason, if no other.

We're not getting George Mason or Drexel, who are both in a more prestigious league than the HL.

Oakland? Probably the best program we have a realistic chance to get, but I'm not excited about OU.

Evansville and Bradley? No way either one of them is leaving the MVC for the HL.

As to the others, why would we want any of them? None of them are "name" schools, even at the mid-major level. I don't want to water down the league with third-tier programs like IUPUI or IPFW, who have neither the facilities nor the fan followings to be top-level members who really bring any value to the league.

In short, I think the Horizon League really gains nothing by adding any of the teams that it has a realistic chance to add. I think we should stay with the nine schools we've got. We're not going to get anybody that has Butler's prestige (or better), so any move we might make does not achieve any useful purpose. And if we end up with a 16-game conference schedule, as compared to 18, that's two more quality nonconference games each team can add to the schedule. That will do far more for our RPI, collectively and individually, than adding a low-level team to the league. Let's not add members who bring no real value just for the sake of adding more members.

is there a reason you're not excited about adding oakland? their body of work has been arguably better than murray state in the last few years - slightly worse overall record but against higher quality teams. it'd be nice if we could get both, but i can understand why murray state would like to stay in the ovc, with their natural rivalries. beyond targeting those two teams, there's not really anybody else to really get excited about.

[Cliston94]

Oakland's a pretty decent program, but hasn't really arrived yet. OU had a few nice wins or near misses a couple seasons ago but got crushed in the NCAAs. I'd have to look up how many times the Grizzlies have made the tournament, but I don't think it's been very many. Three or maybe four, all-time? I don't know if I'd say Oakland's body of work surpasses Murray State's, and its name certainly doesn't. If I recall correctly, Murray State knocked out Vanderbilt a couple years ago and nearly beat Butler. Oakland has done nothing nearly as impressive. The win at Tennessee when UT was ranked #7 was a nice win, but if it's not a tournament win, it doesn't get nearly as much notice.

If we got Murray State, I think people would take notice and be somewhat impressed. If we got Oakland, there'd be a lot of "Really? They got a team from California?" I know, I know, Oakland University is in Michigan. But I'd bet a lot of basketball fans don't know that.

The league lost a big name. If we replace it with a lesser name (and just about anybody we could realistically get would be a lesser name than Butler), it doesn't help us. Oakland's day may come, but let's let Oakland notch a tournament win or two before extending an invite.

[HorizonLeagueFan]

We're not getting George Mason or Drexel, who are both in a more prestigious league than the HL.

We are not adding GM or Drexel because we aren't even looking at them because they are located too far away, not because they are a more presigious conference than the HL.  If anything, the CAA is going down the crapper.   They lost 2 of their top programs, VCU to the A-10 and Old Dominion to Conf USA.
And whoever keeps voting for IPFW and IUPUI hasn't been paying attention to the posts of the connected posters in the HL.  Big D, PantherU, and a few others have confirmed that the HL presidents have already told LeCrone that neither one of those schools will be considered in expansion.
The HL wants to add 3 teams, but only if they will improve the conference enough to potentially be a multi-bid conference in basketball.  If we cannot attract 3 teams that we believe give us that potential, the HL will stop at 1 to get our automatic bid back in baseball.

[IndyValpo]

We're not getting George Mason or Drexel, who are both in a more prestigious league than the HL.

We are not adding GM or Drexel because we aren't even looking at them because they are located too far away, not because they are a more presigious conference than the HL.  If anything, the CAA is going down the crapper.   They lost 2 of their top programs, VCU to the A-10 and Old Dominion to Conf USA.
And whoever keeps voting for IPFW and IUPUI hasn't been paying attention to the posts of the connected posters in the HL.  Big D, PantherU, and a few others have confirmed that the HL presidents have already told LeCrone that neither one of those schools will be considered in expansion.
The HL wants to add 3 teams, but only if they will improve the conference enough to potentially be a multi-bid conference in basketball.  If we cannot attract 3 teams that we believe give us that potential, the HL will stop at 1 to get our automatic bid back in baseball.

Weren't you telling us we did not add one school immediately for a big splash of three at a later date?  If we only take one school, which is likely since Murray State is the only school which remotely fits your criteria and they aren't coming, we are back to Oakland only which should have already happened.

[wh]

We're not getting George Mason or Drexel, who are both in a more prestigious league than the HL.

We are not adding GM or Drexel because we aren't even looking at them because they are located too far away, not because they are a more presigious conference than the HL.  If anything, the CAA is going down the crapper.   They lost 2 of their top programs, VCU to the A-10 and Old Dominion to Conf USA.
And whoever keeps voting for IPFW and IUPUI hasn't been paying attention to the posts of the connected posters in the HL.  Big D, PantherU, and a few others have confirmed that the HL presidents have already told LeCrone that neither one of those schools will be considered in expansion.
The HL wants to add 3 teams, but only if they will improve the conference enough to potentially be a multi-bid conference in basketball.  If we cannot attract 3 teams that we believe give us that potential, the HL will stop at 1 to get our automatic bid back in baseball.

Weren't you telling us we did not add one school immediately for a big splash of three at a later date?  If we only take one school, which is likely since Murray State is the only school which remotely fits your criteria and they aren't coming, we are back to Oakland only which should have already happened.

Horizonleaguefan on 6/23/12:

The HL is going to add 3 teams and they want at least 2 of the 3 to have baseball.

Three weeks ago a brand new poster states emphatically that the HL will be adding 3 new teams - no ifs, ands or buts about it.  Now he changes to maybe 1, maybe 3, depending. I was hopeful that HLfan was somehow a league insider - until now. 

[bbtds]

[
Three weeks ago a brand new poster states emphatically that the HL will be adding 3 new teams - no ifs, ands or buts about it.  Now he changes to maybe 1, maybe 3, depending. I was hopeful that HLfan was somehow a league insider - until now. 

Obviously I don't know HL Fan's connection to the HL office, if there is one, but I think the logic is rather simple here. The HL administrators were trying to line up 3 schools to be announced as joining the HL at the same time. The reason that the HL did not announce the 3 schools were joining the HL immediately was because they had not decided yet whether to switch to the HL yet. There's a plan and if that 3 school plan doesn't work out then it is still very necessary, due to baseball requirements for an NCAA tournament automatic bid, to find a baseball school to join the league. Therefore if 3 schools meeting all the HL requirements decide not to join then a baseball school must be found to keep the baseball automatic NCAA tournament bid.

Is the HL negligent in not planning far enough ahead to add quality schools to the league when the event of Butler's departure did happen? Maybe. We still need to see how things work out. Maybe 3 schools will still be found by basketball tournament time in 2013.

[HorizonLeagueFan]

Three weeks ago a brand new poster states emphatically that the HL will be adding 3 new teams - no ifs, ands or buts about it.  Now he changes to maybe 1, maybe 3, depending. I was hopeful that HLfan was somehow a league insider - until now. 

Nothing has changed with what I have been saying.  The HL wants to add 3 teams to get the HL to a point where we can be a consistent 2 bid conference.  There are a handful of teams that we think can get us there that have legit interest in the HL.  We plan to add 3.  We don't have a commitment from 3 teams yet.  We have 1 (Oakland) that we knows wants in and several that have interest.  If we get the other 2 we want, we will make the announcement around our conference tournament time next year.   
My last post about only adding 1 team was reasoning why we wouldn't go after IUPUI or IPFW.  The HL is a conference made up of many teams that rely on the NCAA tournament money the conference produces.  We have been splitting that money up between 10 members and the HL.  We don't want to add teams, just to add teams.  We don't want to split our share of NCAA tournament money from 10 pieces to 12 pieces unless the payout is greater.  Teams like IUPUI and IPFW don't help us get there and never will.  The HL and it's presidents would rather just add 1 team (to get our baseball bid back) than go to 12 if all we can do is add teams like IUPUI or IPFW.   As I have been saying, the HL wants to add 3 teams.  I believe we will add 3 teams, but not at the expense of quality.

[vu72]

OK, then where does that leave us?  Oakland is in and the other two?  Who on the list can really help us to get to a two bid league?  Drexel, George Mason, Belmont, Murray State?  Yes to all of them.  Geography is against all of them.  So, does the HL abandon their position on geographics or do we stick to Oakland?

Robert Morris would work but really doesn't add much to our rpi.  If we can raid the OVC and get two of them, it could be Morehead State and Belmont, as neither play football in the OVC.  Murray State does. Now, if we could add Belmont and Murray State plus Oakland, we've got something, but Belmont stretches the map.  I suppose anything can happen but the OVC losing Murray or Morehead would mean losing original teams in the conference since 1948.  It would be a major shakeup.

[HorizonLeagueFan]

OK, then where does that leave us?  Oakland is in and the other two?  Who on the list can really help us to get to a two bid league?  Drexel, George Mason, Belmont, Murray State?  Yes to all of them.  Geography is against all of them.  So, does the HL abandon their position on geographics or do we stick to Oakland?

Robert Morris would work but really doesn't add much to our rpi.  If we can raid the OVC and get two of them, it could be Morehead State and Belmont, as neither play football in the OVC.  Murray State does. Now, if we could add Belmont and Murray State plus Oakland, we've got something, but Belmont stretches the map.  I suppose anything can happen but the OVC losing Murray or Morehead would mean losing original teams in the conference since 1948.  It would be a major shakeup.

I beg to differ on Robert Morris.  Their RPI the last 5 years has been 100, 100, 129, 109, and 132.  I consider that to be pretty amazing considering that 2/3 of their games have been conference games vs other NEC schools.   The NEC is one of the worst basketball conferences in the country.  If they can achieve the above RPIs in the NEC, imagine how good their RPI would be in the HL.  The same argument can be made for most of the teams we are looking at because most of those schools come from lower rated conferences.   

[IndyValpo]

I beg to differ on Robert Morris.  Their RPI the last 5 years has been 100, 100, 129, 109, and 132.  I consider that to be pretty amazing considering that 2/3 of their games have been conference games vs other NEC schools.   The NEC is one of the worst basketball conferences in the country.  If they can achieve the above RPIs in the NEC, imagine how good their RPI would be in the HL.

I actually listed Robert Morris as one of my three predictions and would welcome their addition.  They do play football in the NEC but there are teams in that football conference that are not full members (see Duquense). 

[valpopal]

IPFW and the Summit League have now changed the university name to Fort Wayne for its sports teams, perhaps hoping for more respect. Will Fort Wayne be more inviting than IPFW for invite to the Horizon League? 

http://news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120718/SPORTS/120719617/1007/OPINION

[valpotx]

Absolutely not.  They are still the same commuter campus that does not have a good enough athletics reputation for the HL

[valporun]

Did IPFW have a discussions with Milwaukee and Green Bay about how their athletics rebranding has worked out? If, and that's a BIG IF, Fort Wayne works, does it make IUPUI want to become INDIANAPOLIS?

I would agree with a Robert Morris and Oakland, but that third school is going to be the great hang up about this deal.

[bbtds]

Did IPFW have a discussions with Milwaukee and Green Bay about how their athletics rebranding has worked out? If, and that's a BIG IF, Fort Wayne works, does it make IUPUI want to become INDIANAPOLIS?

I would agree with a Robert Morris and Oakland, but that third school is going to be the great hang up about this deal.

Former Indiana Central, division II in sports, is now University of Indianapolis. They are the Greyhounds and are known around town as UIndy and in their conference as Indianapolis.

My thought was maybe IP-Indy? for IUPUI. Ooey Pooey was never a good choice. INPUR-Indy? Indy Downtown? Indy State?(which would take rebranding) Indy Large? George Hill U? 4 vowels & a consonant? White River U? MedDentLaw?

[gmoser1210]

Palindrome University

[wh]

In a thread entitled Oakland to HL, a poster on the Oakland board recently noted: Still no league affiliation on the new floor. Has to be a sign. To quote anchorman "the times, they are a changing"


Read more: http://goldengrizzlyhoops.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1146#ixzz2B0bIEPGr

[zvillehaze]

Did IPFW have a discussions with Milwaukee and Green Bay about how their athletics rebranding has worked out? If, and that's a BIG IF, Fort Wayne works, does it make IUPUI want to become INDIANAPOLIS?

I would agree with a Robert Morris and Oakland, but that third school is going to be the great hang up about this deal.

Former Indiana Central, division II in sports, is now University of Indianapolis. They are the Greyhounds and are known around town as UIndy and in their conference as Indianapolis.

My thought was maybe IP-Indy? for IUPUI. Ooey Pooey was never a good choice. INPUR-Indy? Indy Downtown? Indy State?(which would take rebranding) Indy Large? George Hill U? 4 vowels & a consonant? White River U? MedDentLaw?

The Summit is aggressively working to adopt simpler names.  Fort Wayne (IPFW), Omaha (UNO) and Kansas City (UMKC) are now being used on the league website.  IUPUI is still there, because as bbtds points out, they really don't have a better option.

[covufan]

Did IPFW have a discussions with Milwaukee and Green Bay about how their athletics rebranding has worked out? If, and that's a BIG IF, Fort Wayne works, does it make IUPUI want to become INDIANAPOLIS?

I would agree with a Robert Morris and Oakland, but that third school is going to be the great hang up about this deal.

Former Indiana Central, division II in sports, is now University of Indianapolis. They are the Greyhounds and are known around town as UIndy and in their conference as Indianapolis.

My thought was maybe IP-Indy? for IUPUI. Ooey Pooey was never a good choice. INPUR-Indy? Indy Downtown? Indy State?(which would take rebranding) Indy Large? George Hill U? 4 vowels & a consonant? White River U? MedDentLaw?

The Summit is aggressively working to adopt simpler names.  Fort Wayne (IPFW), Omaha (UNO) and Kansas City (UMKC) are now being used on the league website.  IUPUI is still there, because as bbtds points out, they really don't have a better option.

If the state is going to use the IU and Purdue curriculum at these combined campuses they will want to maintain some kind of control or influence.  The schools, which are more than small commuter schools, need their own identity.  Maybe the solution is to create two new Universities, Northeast Indiana State and White River State, and offer the students the choice of having the new school name on the degree or IU/PU for a period of 5 years or so?

[milanmiracle]

Did IPFW have a discussions with Milwaukee and Green Bay about how their athletics rebranding has worked out? If, and that's a BIG IF, Fort Wayne works, does it make IUPUI want to become INDIANAPOLIS?

I would agree with a Robert Morris and Oakland, but that third school is going to be the great hang up about this deal.

Former Indiana Central, division II in sports, is now University of Indianapolis. They are the Greyhounds and are known around town as UIndy and in their conference as Indianapolis.

My thought was maybe IP-Indy? for IUPUI. Ooey Pooey was never a good choice. INPUR-Indy? Indy Downtown? Indy State?(which would take rebranding) Indy Large? George Hill U? 4 vowels & a consonant? White River U? MedDentLaw?

The Summit is aggressively working to adopt simpler names.  Fort Wayne (IPFW), Omaha (UNO) and Kansas City (UMKC) are now being used on the league website.  IUPUI is still there, because as bbtds points out, they really don't have a better option.

If the state is going to use the IU and Purdue curriculum at these combined campuses they will want to maintain some kind of control or influence.  The schools, which are more than small commuter schools, need their own identity.  Maybe the solution is to create two new Universities, Northeast Indiana State and White River State, and offer the students the choice of having the new school name on the degree or IU/PU for a period of 5 years or so?

You can call it whatever you want instead of IUPUI, but since I know plenty of people who graduated (masters or otherwise) from there, IU or Purdue needs to be on that diploma. It's a giant commuter campus and most people there don't give two rips about any of the sports programs or the name of the school for that matter. Call it Whatsamatter U for all they care, as long as in the end they have an IU or Purdue diploma.

[Valposter]

OK, Oakland, Murray State and Belmont were runaway winners of who we thought the HL should add.....who will actually join? Pick 3

Does anyone know when the drop dead date is to announce HL expansion by the conference?  Iknow that there is some deadline so that HL baseball does not lose it's automatic qualifier status since, with the loss of Butler, there are currently only 5 baseball programs in the HL and the minimum is 6 to maintain an automatic qualifier.  I know there is a grace period but I am not sure how that works.  I'm assuming there needs to be a decision/announcement next spring after NCAA Basketall at the latest.  When would the expansion teams officially join......2014-15 season?  My hope and best guess is Oakland, Murray State and Belmont just like the post above references.  I think Oakland is a done deal.  I'm assuming the other two schools are still in negotiation hence the delay in an announcement.  Anyone have any new insights?

[valpotx]

I believe that the grace period is 3 seasons to get back to the minimum number of schools.  Just adding Oakland will take care of that issue, and hopefully we go with Belmont and Evansville from there to add 2 more schools with baseball, and private to boot 

[valpo84]

With Maryland's and Rutger's move to the B14G, time to start thinking bigger than Oakland. The Big Least is faltering (see news about Boise State considering going back to Mountain West). Are there schools there that would be good adds to expand the conference and focus on its strength in basketball, for example Providence and Villanova have no good homes. What about St John? You add the media markets of the East Coast and add solid basketball first schools. Georgetown is also out there. Louisville or UConn will be heading to ACC. Adding at a minimum Nova, Providence and St Johns would strengthen and solidify the conference. Discuss.... (but think bigger -- Oakland is basically a redundancy and stop gap not a great add).