A national must see....

[usc4valpo]

I will say this - as of today Valpo is #245 in the Sagarin and Campbell is #246!  This has got to be a prime time showdown and made for a College Gameday Saturday.  Imagine a group at Campbell of about 50 behind Fowler, Corso and Herbstreit.

[vuweathernerd]

I will say this - as of today Valpo is #245 in the Sagarin and Campbell is #246!  This has got to be a prime time showdown and made for a College Gameday Saturday.  Imagine a group at Campbell of about 50 behind Fowler, Corso and Herbstreit.

better than south bend...

[VULB#62]

I predict that Campbell will say "this is BS" and go FCS scholarship within  3 years.  They are in the south and FB is too important to show  a losing record against non-scholarship programs.

[valpotx]

I imagine that Stetson and Mercer will do the same down the line

[willy]

I imagine that Stetson and Mercer will do the same down the line

I predict that Campbell will say "this is BS" and go FCS scholarship within 3 years. They are in the south and FB is too important to show a losing record against non-scholarship programs.

Why doesn't Valpo consider this?

[Valpo2010]

I imagine that Stetson and Mercer will do the same down the line

I predict that Campbell will say "this is BS" and go FCS scholarship within 3 years. They are in the south and FB is too important to show a losing record against non-scholarship programs.

Why doesn't Valpo consider this?

$$$$

[VULB#62]

To go FCS scholarship the stadium seating requirements alone are much too much for VU.

Stetson invested $6+ million in their Athletic Training Facility that opened this year just to go FCS non-scholarship in football.  They also pulled in MSO, WSO and WLAX.

The link:
Stetson Athletics Training Facility Tour

Mercer is building a a stadium and huge field house (lockers and training facilities) to go FCS non-scholarship. 

I agree with ValpoTX.  The PFL is only a stepping stone. 

[milanmiracle]

I imagine that Stetson and Mercer will do the same down the line

I predict that Campbell will say "this is BS" and go FCS scholarship within 3 years. They are in the south and FB is too important to show a losing record against non-scholarship programs.

Why doesn't Valpo consider this?

$$$$

Valpo barely supports a non scholarship team, they certainly wouldn't pony up the $$$ for full scholarship.

[VULB#62]

BTW, if you recall in another string about the FB lockers at Valpo, the Stetson videos show what we don't have.

[willy]

I imagine that Stetson and Mercer will do the same down the line

I predict that Campbell will say "this is BS" and go FCS scholarship within 3 years. They are in the south and FB is too important to show a losing record against non-scholarship programs.

Why doesn't Valpo consider this?

$$$$

Valpo barely supports a non scholarship team, they certainly wouldn't pony up the $$$ for full scholarship.

Why is this? I looked up Campbell, Stetson,Mercer and Valpos tuition rates and Valpos is the second highest.  How can these other universities have such nice facilities and support there programs and valpo can't?  Do they have better alumni?

[valporun]

Campbell, Stetson, and Mercer are all located in the football hotbed of the South. Valpo isn't. The money for football is huge in the South. Valpo would be lucky to get enough football money to survive because we're lost in the hotbeds of the B1G and Notre Dame.

[VULB#62]

Conversely they are in SEC and ACC country.  But there is a big difference -- down there everybody is into 'ball.  And the only 'ball is FOOTBALL.  So any school embarking on this path will throw big bucks at it.  It's a way of life. 

And actually, college athletics is a way of life as well.  Most schools place a heavy emphasis there with capital investment.  Take Presbyterian College: 1300 students -- bricks and mortar football stadium for 6500 and play scholarship FCS.  Baseball and soccer facilities are beautiful.  Basketball arena seats only 2,000, however.

[willy]

Campbell, Stetson, and Mercer are all located in the football hotbed of the South. Valpo isn't. The money for football is huge in the South. Valpo would be lucky to get enough football money to survive because we're lost in the hotbeds of the B1G and Notre Dame.

Campbell is in North Carolina and I wouldn't consider that a football state, More of a basketball state with the Tar Heels and Blue Devils.  Dayton, Drake, and Butler all seem to be able to have better facilities and winning programs in both football and basketball and they to are in the middle of Big Ten Country. I don't think Valpo can use that as an excuse.

[VULB#62]

Dayton, Drake, and Butler all seem to be able to have better facilities and winning programs in both football and basketball and they too are in the middle of Big Ten Country. I don't think Valpo can use that as an excuse.

Point well taken.

[valporun]

Based on where Valpo is in locale, they have to contend with Illinois, Northwestern, and Notre Dame for any kind of football attention. Illinois is playing about as well as Valpo, but they have a new coach in Champaign, Northwestern is playing Fitzgerald football, and well Notre Dame is Notre Dame, and they'll get attention win or lose. Valpo just isn't going to break out of that, even if Dayton, Drake, and Butler are in the same geographic area.

Ohio is football country, so Dayton will get money for it, even if they have to share a stadium with high schools and soccer. Drake benefits from being a football state as well. Butler will get support because of the city they are in, and the alumni that give it money. Valpo is still going to struggle because we're not going to put money into a program that has to get what it can for players. Kids in the Chicago proper and suburbs want to get away from home, and for some of them, Valpo is too close to home. Also, some of the suburb kids can afford Valpo, but they want the party lifestyle of the Big Ten, not the dry campus small town feel of Valpo.

[willy]

Based on where Valpo is in locale, they have to contend with Illinois, Northwestern, and Notre Dame for any kind of football attention. Illinois is playing about as well as Valpo, but they have a new coach in Champaign, Northwestern is playing Fitzgerald football, and well Notre Dame is Notre Dame, and they'll get attention win or lose. Valpo just isn't going to break out of that, even if Dayton, Drake, and Butler are in the same geographic area. Ohio is football country, so Dayton will get money for it, even if they have to share a stadium with high schools and soccer. Drake benefits from being a football state as well. Butler will get support because of the city they are in, and the alumni that give it money. Valpo is still going to struggle because we're not going to put money into a program that has to get what it can for players. Kids in the Chicago proper and suburbs want to get away from home, and for some of them, Valpo is too close to home. Also, some of the suburb kids can afford Valpo, but they want the party lifestyle of the Big Ten, not the dry campus small town feel of Valpo.

These all sound like excuses to me.  Not all kids want to get away from home and party.  I think Valpos location should be an advantage not a disadvantage.  Drakes roster is loaded with Illinois talent from right here in Valpos backyard.  I think most kids want to stay within a 4 hour radius of home.  Proof of that would be 61 Ohio players on Dayton's roster.  The problem is Drake has 35 Illinois kids and 19 Iowa kids, so much for Iowa being a football hotbed! Butler has 44 Illinois kids and Valpo 29 Illinois kids.  Some of the best football in the country is played in the chicagoland area ask Drake and Butler.  We are losing the recruiting battle and games to universities that are stealing kids away that are in our own backyard and thats the problem. If Valpo doen't want to put money into the program then I guess the phrase "you get what you pay for" fits!!!!!

[vu72]

Based on where Valpo is in locale, they have to contend with Illinois, Northwestern, and Notre Dame for any kind of football attention. Illinois is playing about as well as Valpo, but they have a new coach in Champaign, Northwestern is playing Fitzgerald football, and well Notre Dame is Notre Dame, and they'll get attention win or lose. Valpo just isn't going to break out of that, even if Dayton, Drake, and Butler are in the same geographic area. Ohio is football country, so Dayton will get money for it, even if they have to share a stadium with high schools and soccer. Drake benefits from being a football state as well. Butler will get support because of the city they are in, and the alumni that give it money. Valpo is still going to struggle because we're not going to put money into a program that has to get what it can for players. Kids in the Chicago proper and suburbs want to get away from home, and for some of them, Valpo is too close to home. Also, some of the suburb kids can afford Valpo, but they want the party lifestyle of the Big Ten, not the dry campus small town feel of Valpo.

These all sound like excuses to me.  Not all kids want to get away from home and party.  I think Valpos location should be an advantage not a disadvantage.  Drakes roster is loaded with Illinois talent from right here in Valpos backyard.  I think most kids want to stay within a 4 hour radius of home.  Proof of that would be 61 Ohio players on Dayton's roster.  The problem is Drake has 35 Illinois kids and 19 Iowa kids, so much for Iowa being a football hotbed! Butler has 44 Illinois kids and Valpo 29 Illinois kids.  Some of the best football in the country is played in the chicagoland area ask Drake and Butler.  We are losing the recruiting battle and games to universities that are stealing kids away that are in our own backyard and thats the problem. If Valpo doen't want to put money into the program then I guess the phrase "you get what you pay for" fits!!!!!

I think we could all agree that the States with traditionally powerful football programs include Ohio, Florida, California and Texas.  Valpo has 17 players hailing from those states while Drake has 5.  My point? Where the kids come from means ZERO, it has to do with talent and coaching.  I think the talent is improving, I'm not sure about the coaching.

[milanmiracle]

Based on where Valpo is in locale, they have to contend with Illinois, Northwestern, and Notre Dame for any kind of football attention. Illinois is playing about as well as Valpo, but they have a new coach in Champaign, Northwestern is playing Fitzgerald football, and well Notre Dame is Notre Dame, and they'll get attention win or lose. Valpo just isn't going to break out of that, even if Dayton, Drake, and Butler are in the same geographic area. Ohio is football country, so Dayton will get money for it, even if they have to share a stadium with high schools and soccer. Drake benefits from being a football state as well. Butler will get support because of the city they are in, and the alumni that give it money. Valpo is still going to struggle because we're not going to put money into a program that has to get what it can for players. Kids in the Chicago proper and suburbs want to get away from home, and for some of them, Valpo is too close to home. Also, some of the suburb kids can afford Valpo, but they want the party lifestyle of the Big Ten, not the dry campus small town feel of Valpo.

These all sound like excuses to me. Not all kids want to get away from home and party.  I think Valpos location should be an advantage not a disadvantage.  Drakes roster is loaded with Illinois talent from right here in Valpos backyard.  I think most kids want to stay within a 4 hour radius of home.  Proof of that would be 61 Ohio players on Dayton's roster.  The problem is Drake has 35 Illinois kids and 19 Iowa kids, so much for Iowa being a football hotbed! Butler has 44 Illinois kids and Valpo 29 Illinois kids.  Some of the best football in the country is played in the chicagoland area ask Drake and Butler.  We are losing the recruiting battle and games to universities that are stealing kids away that are in our own backyard and thats the problem. If Valpo doen't want to put money into the program then I guess the phrase "you get what you pay for" fits!!!!!

I just want to touch on this, though it's FAR from the reason Valpo isn't performing well on the football field.

I believe there is some truth to the fact that not everybody wants to party in college, however considering that 44% of high school seniors have had an alcoholic drink in the last 30 days, the number of people wanting to party in college are probably higher than you think. About 73% of college students drink at least occasionally. I know my wife and I spent most (almost all) weekends at Purdue (or other universities) because of Valpo's lack of nightlife and parties.

To put this in perspective, Butler has a "drunk bus" that runs between campus and Broad Ripple on Friday and Saturday. In case you aren't aware, Broad Ripple is an area consisting of somewhere between 10-15 bars. Valpo isn't Indy, and I get this...however I do believe that the inability to drink alcohol at a tailgate as an over 21 adult along with the university curtailing much of the Greek system, there isn't much of a typical college scene. Do I think it's the only thing a recruit looks at? Absolutely not! Do I think it matters? Yea, a little bit. Of all the colleges I visited or had friends at, Valpo far and away had the most stringent alcohol policy. For the record, Notre Dame was a party from the word GO. You couldn't go to a dorm, or an apartment complex without finding a party. At the time you could drink in your dorm room, just not in the hallways, but it had to be in a plastic cup. They may have been a little too far over the edge for a typical college campus. Just offering a different perspective.

[VULB#62]

FWIW Valpo is the only FCS school, I believe, in northern Indiana and is 118 miles away from the closest FCS school, NIU, in the midwest.  Butler is 154 miles south and Indiana State is 168 miles south as well.  There are no FCS programs to the east and none into lower Michigan.  That we are in the middle of Northwestern, Purdue and ND (FBS schools) is not an issue -- the kids we want could maybe walk on (a few of them) but wouldn't be offered scholarships.  We want kids who are FCS caliber kids who fell through the MVFC cracks or kids who would warrant a D-II FB scholarship, but would rather attend and play for a national D-I university. 

They are out there.  Valpo just has to get them to enroll.  But a pathetic W-L record since 2007 (10-52) and only 2 wins in the last 4 seasons with most losses of the epic scale does not inspire players to risk it.  A high school senior didn't even check college FB scores until just a year or two ago. Maybe as junior he might even check college athletic web sites to research what schools (and their records and facilities) he might consider.  Either way, he has only one memory of VU football -- lopsided losses.  In his mind Valpo and winning do not compute.  Past PFL titles are ancient history.

It comes down to winning some games, sure, but that is not enough.  If I was a young man considering attending a university like Valpo purely for academics and campus life (OK, Milan maybe not the party life  ), it would certainly be in the mix and has much to draw my attention.  However, if I were that same young man, but also loved football and wanted to continue to play football as an undergraduate, right now I wouldn't sign up. That's because no matter what people tell me on my visit on a recruiting trip, the physical evidence I would see around me would cause me to question the university's commitment to the one athletic program that I want to be a part of.  Then I go to Butler and see the new Butler Bowl. I visit a D-III school like Franklin or DePauw and note how nice the football surroundings are.  I want to feel good about my decision and my 4 year experience.  I conclude that I don't want to lose most of my games over 4 years at a school that hasn't made the same commitment to football that I did.

[milanmiracle]

It comes down to winning some games, sure, but that is not enough.  If I was a young man considering attending a university like Valpo purely for academics and campus life (OK, Milan maybe not the party life  ), it would certainly be in the mix and has much to draw my attention.  However, if I were that same young man, but also loved football and wanted to continue to play football as an undergraduate, right now I wouldn't sign up. That's because no matter what people tell me on my visit on a recruiting trip, the physical evidence I would see around me would cause me to question the university's commitment to the one athletic program that I want to be a part of.  Then I go to Butler and see the new Butler Bowl. I visit a D-III school like Franklin or DePauw and note how nice the football surroundings are.  I want to feel good about my decision and my 4 year experience.  I conclude that I don't want to lose most of my games over 4 years at a school that hasn't made the same commitment to football that I did.

[milanmiracle]

I think Coach Carlson is going to have a real tough time recruiting this coming season. Going into year 4 his overall record will be 1-32. That's a tough sell to any recruit, especially when he's going to look at this coaches history and their recent success. In year 3 you should at least be making progress in turning the program around. You really can't blame the previous staff for the success you're having now since you've had plenty of time to install "the system" you hope to run. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.

[VULB#62]

I think Coach Carlson is going to have a real tough time recruiting this coming season. Going into year 4 his overall record will be 1-32. That's a tough sell to any recruit, especially when he's going to look at this coaches history and their recent success. In year 3 you should at least be making progress in turning the program around. You really can't blame the previous staff for the success you're having now since you've had plenty of time to install "the system" you hope to run. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.

I have been patiently optimistic since Dale came on board.  I admire the things he has brought to organizational and program logistical improvements.  I listened to the concerns about no talent left on the roster for season #1.  I understood that he got a late start on his first class.  I followed season two closely and saw some spotty improvement and watched the Campbell win along with a the GameTracker for a fairly close Davidson loss to end the season.  It was my understanding that this year a new DC would bring an aggressive, attacking defensive approach to that side of the ball. I was looking forward to fewer one-sided track meets and more football games.  I was excited over a targeted and touted group of incoming freshman melding with the now experienced players from recruiting classes 1 and 2.  I could still envision a winless season, but, except for YSU, I was looking for and expecting, 24-27, 21-34, 34-38, 14-21 type scores against all other opponents including Duquesne.  But that has not come to pass.  Something is missing.  Our kids are certainly mismatched against a YSU (who has tanked in the second half of the season, can you believe that?), but size-wise, speed-wise and skill-wise they are NOT 45 points worse than Dayton or 39 points worse than Butler.  They lost to PFL #1 Drake by 14.  That one game has been the only clear reflection of the talent and skills that are out there each Saturday.  Why is that?  It's not that they are still young -- this is recruiting class 3.  That is not valid anymore.

[milanmiracle]

I think Coach Carlson is going to have a real tough time recruiting this coming season. Going into year 4 his overall record will be 1-32. That's a tough sell to any recruit, especially when he's going to look at this coaches history and their recent success. In year 3 you should at least be making progress in turning the program around. You really can't blame the previous staff for the success you're having now since you've had plenty of time to install "the system" you hope to run. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.

I have been patiently optimistic since Dale came on board.  I admire the things he has brought to organizational and program logistical improvements.  I listened to the concerns about no talent left on the roster for season #1.  I understood that he got a late start on his first class.  I followed season two closely and saw some spotty improvement and watched the Campbell win along with a the GameTracker for a fairly close Davidson loss to end the season.  It was my understanding that this year a new DC would bring an aggressive, attacking defensive approach to that side of the ball. I was looking forward to fewer one-sided track meets and more football games.  I was excited over a targeted and touted group of incoming freshman melding with the now experienced players from recruiting classes 1 and 2.  I could still envision a winless season, but, except for YSU, I was looking for and expecting, 24-27, 21-34, 34-38, 14-21 type scores against all other opponents including Duquesne.  But that has not come to pass.  Something is missing.  Our kids are certainly mismatched against a YSU (who has tanked in the second half of the season, can you believe that?), but size-wise, speed-wise and skill-wise they are NOT 45 points worse than Dayton or 39 points worse than Butler.  They lost to PFL #1 Drake by 14.  That one game has been the only clear reflection of the talent and skills that are out there each Saturday.  Why is that?  It's not that they are still young -- this is recruiting class 3.  That is not valid anymore.

I too think something is missing. I still point back to the inital season where he let those kids get beat down all in the name of "the system" and glorified practice games. I watched every play of that Jacksonville game, and nothing can ever convince me he did anything to help those kids win that game. His talent and what he tried to do absolutely played into Jacksonville's hands. Either he's a terrible evaluator of film, or he just didn't care his players would never win in space against a much faster and more athletic team. After it was clear they weren't going to win, he did nothing to stop a blowout. As a player, this sticks with you, and is always in the back of your mind.

[FWalum]

I have also been very patient with the situation.  I was extremely enthused by this hire and his past experiences and having been in his shoes as a coach I still have to believe that his record of program startup and turnaround gives his "system" some credibility.  This kind of program change just does not happen by accident.  He has done a very good job in the past.  I will admit that the bloom is coming off the rose a little bit for me making me wonder what is so different at VU versus his other programs.

[milanmiracle]

I have also been very patient with the situation.  I was extremely enthused by this hire and his past experiences and having been in his shoes as a coach I still have to believe that his record of program startup and turnaround gives his "system" some credibility.  This kind of program change just does not happen by accident.  He has done a very good job in the past.  I will admit that the bloom is coming off the rose a little bit for me making me wonder what is so different at VU versus his other programs.

IF I understand correctly, I think his other two programs were startups vs. bringing back from the dead. I know that Tri State was a startup, I can't verify Ohio Dominican. I think it's easier to build from nothing in this case, than it is to change a culture of losing. Take a look at Marian University in Indianapolis. They have a completely new program, with new facilities, and great coaches (who might I add is a Northern Indiana native). I think this has been a much bigger challenge than even Coach Carlson anticipated.