Valpo v. Kansas

[vu72]

No, this isn't in the wrong category, it's a subject that goes directly at the problem with Valpo football.  It's culture, period.

We haven't had a winning tradition since Em Bauer was coach, and it gets down to this: We are located in Indiana, and inspite of some Indy guys opinions, Indiana football will NEVER be regarded with the likes of Ohio, Penn, Fla, Texas or California.

Valpo is a basketball school in the same way Kansas, or IU for that matter, is a basketball school.  Can anyone blame IU's or Kansas' football problems on facilities?
Kansas is a major state school who is currently 1-6 and most likely will finish 1-11.
If so, their five year record will be 17-40.  How about IU?? I'll give them two more wins this year, and if I'm right their five year record will be 18-49.  Sure, that better than Valpo's by a large degree, but the hole Coach Carlson had tio dig out of was much deeper.
So, am I saying that Valpo simply can't compete at the PFL level?  Certainly not.  We proved that with two titles since 2000.  Do we need to add much to the program and facilities?  Yes.  Is if a tougher sale than, say, Dayton or San Diego or Jacksonville or even Drake? Absolutely.

[Cliston94]

The bottom line is that Valpo really doesn't care about football or emphasize it in any way. It also does not help that we do not offer scholarships in football. Although this is also true of the rest of our league, each one of those programs either had a much stronger tradition than Valpo has, or are relatively new programs that don't have the stigma of decades of losing and losing badly. A program in as bad a shape as Valpo's is a tough sell to recruits, especially if you can't give them scholarships.

If Valpo is serious about football (which I would say it absolutely is not), it needs to leave the PFL and become a scholarship program again, as it was when it was Division II in football (through 1993). Obviously we are precluded from going back to D-II due to the NCAA ruling in 1993 that D-I schools could not play D-II or D-III in football, but we could become an FCS independent, offer scholarships, and build the program. We could continue to play a similar schedule as we are playing now -- it's not unprecedented for non-scholarship schools to play nonconference games against scholarship schools -- until we elevate the program enough to possibly join a scholarship-based FCS league. It's the only way VU is ever going to have a chance to compete in football.

If we are not going to invest in football and attempt to build a winner, it's time to admit that we really don't have a football program and put an end to it.

[crusadermoe]

Hey 72, I agree strongly with your analogy to Kansas.     Hope you can see from other posts that I deeply want Valpo to improve.   

Given all the headwinds, I do think Tom Horne should get a lot more credit for the two championships he won.     All I ever seemed to hear about him were complaints.   As I said before, entering D-1 and the Pioneer was actually a help and he capitalized.  Don't have time to analyze, but I do think other posters have pointed out that we had a stretch not long ago where we played .500 ball on average.   

I truly do think there is some merit in targeting certain high schools steadily.   One of the best HS programs in Chicago had a VU alumnus head coach John Belskis for many years in 90s and 00s.   He is also a VU HOF members as a player.  That league in Hinsdale area could have been a pipeline and still could. 

[valpotx]

It is possible to have a winner at Valpo in football.  Every year I was in school (5 including my red-shirt year) we were very competitive in each game, and won the 2 PFL championships.  We constantly turned out packed stands, at least on our side of the field, and had enthusiasm for the program.  It just takes one year...

[crusaderjoe]

I understand where you are coming from, but If Valpo is a basketball school in the same way that Kansas or IU are basketball schools and it is culturally aligned to them sportswise as you say, then why is its basketball venue hot garbage and the worst in the HL?  With all the talent floating around in Indiana, why did the program lose 66 games in a three year period in the early 90s?   Is VU really a basketball school like KU or IU or a school that has had some basketball success over the last 20 years?  Think about that distinction for a second.  In that context, did the basketball program turn itself around because of a school culture that was leaned towards basketball?  Doubtful, IMO.  On the flipside, I don't think football gets a pass for being anemic because of a school culture either.

Yes, this is Indiana where basketball is king.  VU basketball wasn't king for a long long time at the D-I level though either, geography not withstanding.

[VULB#62]

This is a very complex issue and analysis will involve apples, oranges and cumquats -- meaning it's hard to draw valid parallels.  IU can't build a winner in FB but Purdue up the road and ND to the north can.  Illinois has a problem with a winning FB tradition, but Northwestern stays competitive even though it's the smallest in the B1G and the only private.  Kansas' all-time record is 574-573-58.  Recently they've had issues, but in the 2002-2009 period under Mark Mangino (who resigned due to an investigation into coaching practices) they were 50-48 and went to bowls in 03, 05, 07, 08.  Across the state is K-State and they rose out of rubble two decades ago when they were the doormat of the Big 8 and are now top 10 in the polls.

I believe it comes down to the individual school and their    commitment   

If President Heckler walked into the AD's office this afternoon and said:
Starting with the day after the last game of this season, we are going to reevaluate our current staff and make a change if that is the correct thing to do or add support if that's correct.  We will rebuild Brown Field (stands, press box, track etc) for next season.  We will add $$$ to the recruiting budget, and we'll refurbish the locker and weight facilities by this summer.  We will be a .500 team in the PFL in 2013, and have a .500 or better record overall in 2014.   By 2015 we will compete for the PFL title.  Make it happen, Mark. 

If that was to occur, don't you think Valpo FB would turn around in a heartbeat?  Case in point, just player-wise, wasn't Dave Macchi a JC transfer and didn't he help turn the program into a PFL title in 2003 after successive seasons of 3-8 and 1-10?

[crusadermoe]

I loved the "beating the dead horse" cartoons, '62!!

Guilty as charged.     It's fun to keep speculating and advising and doing some "armchair" A.D. work.  Bottom line: there are no real excuses.   School and A.D. just need to figure it out.   

Football is always a great tool to get alumni on campus because it happens outdoors on weekends with beautiful weather.   Basketball is the opposite except there are some weekend games.  VU missing its chance to use football more broadly.

[VULB#62]

Football is always a great tool to get alumni on campus because it happens outdoors on weekends with beautiful weather.   Basketball is the opposite except there are some weekend games.  VU missing its chance to use football more broadly.

It also sets the tone for the school year among students.  This holds true especially for freshmen, who get their first real taste of campus life on those early fall Saturdays.  Even if they don't go to a game, they see the hustle and bustle around campus.  If they do go and it's a competitive game and people are happy instead of crestfallen, the whole campus is lifted up.  Imagine that each year, instead of what is happening now.

[VULB#62]

If that was to occur, don't you think Valpo FB would turn around in a heartbeat?  Case in point, just player-wise, wasn't Dave Macchi a JC transfer and didn't he help turn the program into a PFL title in 2003 after successive seasons of 3-8 and 1-10?

Just checked the 2003 roster -  5 JC players including Macchi and a 4 year college transfer on that title team.  Macchi was not the prototype QB at 5'10" 182 lbs, but in two seasons he threw for 7,089 yards and 38 TDs in 2003.

In another string (A National Must see....) there was a discussion of the difference between building a program from scratch and rebuilding a program that has fallen on hard times.  This is a key differentiation.  Valpo has clearly followed the principle that underlies the former -- gradually build with each incoming freshman class.  But turning around a program in desperate straights requires a different philosophy and an immediate injection of talent (and, yes, Commitment) -- it's what Horn apparently did after the 3-8 season in 2001. Although he went 1-10 in 2002 in Macchi's first year, they won the PFL the next year.  This is a hard lesson-learned about our current condition.

[new2ff]

Wabash & Franklin are both D-3 schools in Indiana. I would say if Valpo was as good as either one that they would be at least .500 in PFL. Not to name the great D-3 lutheran colleges in the midwest that would compete in the PFL...don't get it.

[chef]

I think there's a pretty significant drop off from the top half of the PFL to good D-III programs. Case in point Franklin, who lost to Butler 42-13 in week two and since that game have beaten their opponents by a combined score of 281-47.

[new2ff]

Do you think Valpo could beat either Franklin or Wabash?

My point is if d-3 schools can put great programs on the field, why not Valpo?

It's all about recruiting the right players & there are a lot of very good players out there that I'm sure would love to play at a great school like Valpo, we just have to go get them.

[chef]

Valpo could compete with Franklin or Wabash. However, I understand your point completely. Teams in the PFL should be better than Franklin and Wabash, and most of them are better than them. I guess my main point was the top five PFL teams would beat just about every D-III program. I'm sure Coach Carlson would say we should be better than Franklin and Wabash.

[VULB#62]

Should? Yes.  But Valpo's two losses to Franklin in 2010 (7-42) and in 2011 (35-49) say otherwise. Maybe earlier this year we could have beaten them, but we'll never know.  I understand that going forward Valpo will no longer schedule D-III or NAIA schools. It'll all be D-II or FCS.  Further on it will only be Ivy, Patriot, NEC for 2 games and 1 against major FCS conferences -- MVFC and Big Sky -- probably for the pay day.

[crusadermoe]

Can't resist asking thi:  What is rationale for not playing a D-3..ever?   
Here are at least 4 reasons for scheduling at least one per year. 
1)      We don't need the non-conf. "resume" to reach our "bowl" game.  It is a pre-set conf. champs match up.
2)      We could use a morale boost game early in the year.
3)       Travel is costly for a football team.     Why not drive to a small college and save $. 
4)       If we build a fan base at some point, they can follow us to the small college game.
If prestige is the argument for our current schedule strategy, doesn't that lead us right back to the debate about the pub value of wins vs opponent names

[VULB#62]

I think it's the D-I perception thing.  "If we claim to be a D-! program then act like one."  But what I've relayed is not fact -- more asides from believable sources.  That's why the D-II programs will hang around a while (they ARE scholarship), but I assume that as we get more and more competitive (don't know when that'll be) we'll move into all FCS.  The down side is losing to a D-III.

[usc4valpo]

You know, after reading and seeing all this, and Valpo's non-committment to make this work, and other schools committing to this, it's time to get rid of football.  Put more money into basketball where they have success and become more competitive in soccer.

Heck, think out of the box a little bit - how about hockey?

[VULB#62]

Heck, think out of the box a little bit - how about hockey?

Don't agree about dropping FB, but if we were to add a sport, make it LaCrosse.  It would mean both a men's and a women's team, but that's OK.

[usc4valpo]

OK, that can work.  Lacrosse is popular.

So you think if Valpo is not committed to FB, they should keep it?

[VULB#62]

Someone has to send a wake-up call to the administration and get that commitment going.  Unfortunately, my PowerBall tickets did not come in, so I'm out at least for this week.

IMO there is nothing on a college campus that can compare to a beautiful fall afternoon, cloudless sky, a pep band playing tunes (we used to have a marching band BTW), crowds cheering and a win (or just a damn good game) on the grid iron.  The overflow lasts a whole week.  And multiple wins energizes a campus. There are many other schools who get the concept.  If I had a couple of $mil$, there'd be a meeting with the AD and Prez for sure.

[Cliston94]

Hey 72, I agree strongly with your analogy to Kansas.     Hope you can see from other posts that I deeply want Valpo to improve. Given all the headwinds, I do think Tom Horne should get a lot more credit for the two championships he won.     All I ever seemed to hear about him were complaints.   As I said before, entering D-1 and the Pioneer was actually a help and he capitalized.  Don't have time to analyze, but I do think other posters have pointed out that we had a stretch not long ago where we played .500 ball on average. I truly do think there is some merit in targeting certain high schools steadily.   One of the best HS programs in Chicago had a VU alumnus head coach John Belskis for many years in 90s and 00s.   He is also a VU HOF members as a player.  That league in Hinsdale area could have been a pipeline and still could.

I'm glad to see somebody mention Tom Horne. I was there for the first few years of his tenure. It is beyond question that he left the program in a far better condition than he found it. His first year, VU made national news for losing to Grand Valley State, 91-0. But the team improved every season, and by his fifth year, we had a competitive program. I think he doesn't really get the credit he deserves because he was very intense and sometimes rubbed people the wrong way. But he did a terrific job at Valpo, especially considering the headwinds you mentioned.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

And maybe this is not the right thread for a "why not Coach Horne?" discussion, but why did it come to pass that they parted?

I know there was regression after the PFL title, but it seemed so strange, as far as the (summer) timing...anyone know more than I what went down and why?

[crusadermoe]

My understanding is that there were personal reasons that developed in the summer right before the season.    Therefore Adams was hired rather than conduct a national search.   Adams was not an HC as we've said.   Great guy.

Horne's performance as a coach was good and you made that case well too.