Next Season and Beyond

[zvillehaze]

I'm curious.  What facility improvements did Butler do to enhance its success?  They are just now raising money to improve Hinkle.  They sure did pay Stevens--a million a year.  Not to diminish Stevens in any way, but Butler's success was tied to getting very lucky with Hayward and Matt Howard (who was highly regarded) but not to the level he achieved as well as that other guard who is now also in the NBA.  They were very good this year and made the dance because of the play of Rotnei Clark.  How they do next year with he and Smith will be very interesting.

No doubt Butler has been living a charmed life.  If not for 1-year wonder Rotnei Clark, they would have probably been worse this year than last - minus Hopkins.  Other than Dunham none of their returning players look like they have much potential for improvement.  At the same time they are going to be playing in even a tougher league.  Butler's 15 minutes could be about over.

I realize it took place on the old board, but I thought we all agreed that Gordon Hayward was Butler's "one lucky recruit" and was solely responsible for all Butler success?  Now you guys are claiming it's Clarke? (with mentions for Howard, Mack and Smith).  Butler is clearly the luckiest program in NCAA basketball.  I'm assuming these "lucky" recruits weren't evaluated or recruited or developed by Butler's staff ... they just showed up on campus? 

FWIW, Butler played 3 3/4 games this year without Clarke.  Those games were a road win at Dayton, 15 point win over Richmond, 1 point buzzer beating loss at La Salle (still alive in Sweet 16) and a win over Gonzaga.  Clarke was very good this year, but they certainly appeared to be competitive in those 4 games without him.

I answered vu72 in another thread that Butler could take a step back next year, but the program is positioned well going forward.  Just my opinion, but if you take a program / coach that went to back-to-back championship games, add a $25 million facilities upgrade (with more on the way) and a new $3+ million TV deal (more luck, I presume) in the Big East, I think they'll be ok.  But that's just my  .

[lowposter]

Howard was recruited by Xaiver and Purdue (who chose Scott Martin over him) and Hayward was recruited by Purdue.  Butler is well placed for a continued significant run.  BTW the Butler system was well in place well before Howard and Hayward showed up.  Check out all the big time NCAA wins earlier this century.

lowposter

[valpotx]

Not on topic, but I wanted to mention that I HEAVILY booed Hayward last night at the Mavs/Jazz game, and to much success  .  I even got a group of people around me to chant 'Butler sucks' lol

[usc4valpo]

Man, you guys need to leave Butler alone.  They run a clean solid basketball program.  They play a lot better than those zombie clowns in South Bend did Friday night...

[LaPorteAveApostle]

zombie clowns in South Bend

b-movie title of the year semifinalist

[classof2014]

I'm new to this message board. Just discovered it after sadly watching the team fall to MSU in the tourny and couldn't get enough Valpo basketball.

Anyways I've done some research on the incoming class. Which all of you know to be Adekoya, Carter, Davidson, Peters, Williams, and Yeo. As for this group of incoming players, is one of the best and me being a junior at VU will see the first major turnover in talent. I do think next year Capo will have a big season, when he saw more playing time he flourished, so close to a triple double against UIC, who was a good team this year, and I think him becoming the starter will anchor the front court, maybe not as accurate as KVW but definitely has the ability to be an All Horizon League forward when all is said and done next year. I think Dority will be greatly improved too, he has the potential to be a big time scorer next year as he sees his playing time increase with the graduation of Buggs, even though I don't think he should be the PG (that job will belong to Carter once he is eligible at the semester break but I'll get o him later). In games against MO St, and @UIC you saw the potential he has and at times when he was locked in he was a prolific scorer but many times he was inconsistent and his defense lacked at time (UDM game) but if he improves on his decision making I think he can be a 15-20ppg player next year. Those are by far to me the two best players for the Crusaders next season.

Now for the bench players. The previous season started with a bang for Jordan Coleman with 15 points against GA SO, I thought we had something big and at times he showed some athleticism with some big time dunks but saw his play diminish. As long as he doesn't transfer out I think he will play a big role with the team and will likely start at the beginning of the season. I think Vashil will develop into a solid number 2 forward for VU, he plays defense well and those long arms make him a nightmare for anybody trying to drive into the lane for a shot and when he reaches out he maybe is two inches from the rim, has turned him into a dunk machine, that's all the offense he has brought to VU is some dunking on the offensive side of the ball. If he can improve his ball handling, he can really become something special in his remaining years at VU. While Alex Rossi can be a great shooter, although his defense is lacking at times, and I believe he had some sort of heart condition which is why he missed much of the season (at leased so I heard). As for Chadwick I know little or nothing about him, he has some size, have no idea if he can shoot or not, maybe the Rowdy replacement if he can shoot.

Now for the incoming class. As for Keith Carter, who I think is the best recruit in this class. Although I know he is a transfer from SLU, he was the runner up for the Illinois High School Basketball POY in 2012, which is saying something for the talent rich state of Illinois, and once eligible (although I heard he might be eligible immediately due to medical redshirt) will quickly fit in as the new PG. From some of the videos I've seen, he reminds me of a bigger Erik Buggs who can shoot, and I believe is Buggs was a good shooter he could possibly be NBA bound. The next best player in the class is probably Clay Yeo, a guy coming to Valpo who can dunk on somebody is something to write home about! The last time I remember somebody attempting a dunk on someone was Richie Edwards trying a windmill dunk and failing (can't recall the team he tried it against). I think he as the potential to become a great player with VU and I believe he will make an immediate impact on his arrival to VU. Then I go to Alec Peters, who just finished in fifth place as the Illinois High School basketball POY, which is definitely saying something once again as being from talent rich IL. Peters reminds me a lot of Rowdy, and is possibly the size of Rowdy already 6'7" and 200 lbs, while Broekhoff only had him by 15 lbs his senior year. Like Rowdy Peters is a matchup nightmare for teams as he can shoot the three lights out and has the size and quickness to get to the rim. The next guy I will go with Jubril Adekoya, from what I've heard he can clean up the boards. Had 21 rebounds in a single game and for a guy who is listed at 6'6" (although I think he might be a bit bigger now) he can definitely become the guy we need on the offensive glass, and defensive glass. His size (as of now) might be the one thing that can hold him back a bit at the D-1 level, although he may still grown, and if he turns into a 6'8" 6'9" man, we got a steal. I think Lexus Williams can possible be the backup PG to Carter once Dority moves into the 2, where I think he belongs, the kid can shoot and pass pretty well, and can defend some too which is a plus for any freshman. As for Nick Davidson, he has the size of a Matt Kenney type, even though he can play PG I don't see him there I can see him similar to a Matt Kenney, he can do a little of everything, he can get the steal, make the three, or drive to the hoop.

As for the remaining scholarship I would love to see a big guy come 6'10" 250lbs+ come in whether it be transfer or freshman, because as we saw in the MSU game not having a BIG really hurt us in that game.

At the end of next year I expect the starting lineup to be: Capo, Dority, Carter, Yeo, and Peters (I think Yeo and Peters are that good). And I do believe Valpo will be one of the favorites for next year along with WSU and GB. But like 2011-12 season there is still a lot of uncertainty to whether or not the new faces pan out and if the juniors step up into their rolls and become bigtime players in their final season!

Guess I'll have to wait and see if my prediction about next season are right. Only 7 more months!!!!

[vu72]

Well written 14!  Keep it coming and make sure you get your classmates to get off their butts and fill up the stands! 

[VU72too]

I think you did a fine job and that's plenty of info for a poster who says he follows Valpo basketball but doesn't know much about it's history of conference affiliation. I think his biggest issue maybe that he listens to too many east coast writers (much like setshot) and because they don't do much on the Horizon League on the east coast he feels the Horizon League isn't good enough for where he wants Valpo to be.

Ease up Historyman...We're all on the same team here. No, I don't get to read the Pulitzer Prize winning NW Indiana Times but even the Chicago Trib. doesn't give much love to the HL...and obviously neither does the NCAA with only one bid assigned to such a lofty conference.

[classof2014]

Well written 14!  Keep it coming and make sure you get your classmates to get off their butts and fill up the stands! 

Thanks


I know! It kills me to see all the games where nobody turned out. I for myself didn't miss a single game (expect for breaks)! Senior night was pathetic in my opinion, hopefully they'll be enough buzz around the team next year that students can fill the student section. Cause when it is full the ARC is rocking!

[a3uge]

I think you did a fine job and that's plenty of info for a poster who says he follows Valpo basketball but doesn't know much about it's history of conference affiliation. I think his biggest issue maybe that he listens to too many east coast writers (much like setshot) and because they don't do much on the Horizon League on the east coast he feels the Horizon League isn't good enough for where he wants Valpo to be.

Ease up Historyman...We're all on the same team here. No, I don't get to read the Pulitzer Prize winning NW Indiana Times but even the Chicago Trib. doesn't give much love to the HL...and obviously neither does the NCAA with only one bid assigned to such a lofty conference.

So where do you expect Valpo to go, being only 4 years removed from the old conference? The Big East? Tell me how exactly the scenario is going to play out with Valpo in the Big East, or in a conference that is widely televised and covered in your Chicago Tribune. It's not like Valpo can invite itself to any conference it wants. They haven't won a NCAA tourney game since the 90's, and you're complaining about being in the Horizon League? That's just absurd. And the Horizon League has had at large bids, and an overall great record in the tournament for a mid major conference. Hell, they've put a team in two championship games. Really, your beef is with all mid major teams at this point. It's completely nonsensical. You offer these blind criticisms, but don't come up with any solutions to the issues you have. You're just trolling Valpo at this point. If you want to complain about something, there's plenty valid concerns. Complain about the facilities, the lack of student section attendance, hell, complain about the sidewalks not being properly salted before the game, but if you're coming here to complain that the Horizon League isn't good enough for Valpo, well you're just going to sound like a complete ignoramus.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

You're just trolling Valpo at this point.

There is suspicion that VU72too is SadersOfTheLostARC, who was Crusader03, who was dcvalpo, i believe.  So you'd be dead on if true.

Then again, that was initially thought of me too, so I'm remaining neutral.  Our mods will be able to tell for sure.

[VU72too]

Such venom is what is absurd...I am not familiar with any of these "handles" you quoted, and The Chicago Trib was referenced only as a newspaper that is read outside Porter County.
  It's amazing how in less than 24 hours  of my initial  comments about the schools that VU plays in the HL  such a maelstrom of anger has ensued. Ttell me why a small private school is stuck playing against, with the exception of Detroit and Loyola, secondary level state schools, 3,4,5 times their size with much lower academic thresholds. Why? Poor planning on the part of the administration/ath. dept.  and lack of vision. You are all heralding the move to the HL as  an amazing feat. Really?
  This was the year to move on and up. The opportunity has passed VU by once again. VU will never get seeded higher then 12 in the HL, and were VERY lucky to win the HL Tourney to get a bid in the first place..... I'm sure you are familiar with the definition of insanity.....
I guess you all like being a minor-major fish in a small pond.

Step out and see the world guys...see you at Homecoming...

[valporun]

I think we're fine in the Horizon League for now. Once we start regularly winning HL conference titles and tournament titles, with consistent NCAA appearances (leading to wins in the early rounds), then we have a resume worth showing a better conference. Why move to a new conference just because everyone else is doing it? Right now, we're a big fish in a small pond because we don't have any reason to go anywhere. If basketball is our only sport concern, we have zip to sell besides a young head coach with an NBA career and "One Shining Moment". Granted baseball, softball, soccer are getting better, but we don't have the consistency in any sport to give a selling point to any conference that we would want to move to.

After my diatribe here, what does Valpo really have to sell athletically to any conference that we should move up to?

[vu72]

In all "major" sports, other than women's basketball, (men's and women's soccer, volleyball, men's basketball, baseball and softball) Valpo is near or at the top of our new conference.  Those teams could compete well in say, The Valley, which is as high as a mid-major conference can be. The answer is to wait and see what shakes out from other conferences and then add teams that can strengthen the brand and not be geographically silly.

[a3uge]

Such venom is what is absurd...I am not familiar with any of these "handles" you quoted, and The Chicago Trib was referenced only as a newspaper that is read outside Porter County.
  It's amazing how in less than 24 hours  of my initial  comments about the schools that VU plays in the HL  such a maelstrom of anger has ensued. Ttell me why a small private school is stuck playing against, with the exception of Detroit and Loyola, secondary level state schools, 3,4,5 times their size with much lower academic thresholds. Why? Poor planning on the part of the administration/ath. dept.  and lack of vision. You are all heralding the move to the HL as  an amazing feat. Really?
  This was the year to move on and up. The opportunity has passed VU by once again. VU will never get seeded higher then 12 in the HL, and were VERY lucky to win the HL Tourney to get a bid in the first place..... I'm sure you are familiar with the definition of insanity.....
I guess you all like being a minor-major fish in a small pond.

Step out and see the world guys...see you at Homecoming...

Insanity? You keep criticizing Valpo for remaining in the Horizon (THIS YEAR) but you offer no suggestion as to which superior conference Valpo could logistically switch to. Seriously, which conference do you think Valpo could have switched to? Now answer how we could have logistically gotten an invitation to said conference. Here, since you won't bother to do any research yourself, I'll even give you a list of conferences by RPI:

Rank   Conference
1   Mountain West Conference
2   Big Ten Conference
3   Big East Conference
4   Atlantic Coast Conference
5   Big 12 Conference
6   Pac 12 Conference
7   Atlantic 10 Conference
8   Southeastern Conference
9   Missouri Valley Conference
10   West Coast Conference
11   Conference USA
12   Horizon League
13   Western Athletic Conference
14   Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference
15   Sun Belt Conference
16   Ohio Valley Conference
17   Patriot League
18   Mid American Conference
19   Summit League
20   Northeast Conference
21   Big West Conference
22   America East Conference
23   Ivy League
24   Colonial Athletic Association
25   Southland Conference
26   Atlantic Sun Conference
27   Southern Conference
28   Big Sky Conference
29   Big South Conference
30   Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference
31   Southwestern Athletic Conference
32   Great West Conference
33   Independents

The only theoretically possible options for Valpo at this point in time to move up would be the MVC, whom is losing Creighton. I really doubt Valpo has gotten an invitation to the MVC, and if they DID have an invitation, I doubt they'd turn it down.

[valporun]

Other than men's basketball, most of the top sports at VU are playing against only 5 or 6 conference members in said sports, most of which don't get much administrative support either. That makes it seem that the HL is holding Valpo back, but Valpo has too many sports that are inconsistent/bad for any other conference, and yes I will say that track and cross country are two of our worst, but those are directly affected  by facilities that VU has tried to fund for, and FAILED.

I still don't see a need for Valpo to move up until we're consistently winning HL conference titles/tourneys and NCAA games. Otherwise, we might as well call ourselves ORU, UMKC, or Denver, who only made moves because everyone else was doing it.

[FWalum]

Can we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads.  VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations.  Look at this...
1     Mountain West   
2     Big Ten   
3     Big East   
4     Atlantic Coast   
5     Big 12   
6     Pacific-12   
7     Atlantic 10
8     Southeastern
9     Missouri Valley
10     West Coast
11     Conference USA
12     Horizon League

Where do you see us going?  There are only a few reasonable choices.  Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member.  Why?  Only because we have won the HL two years in a row.  Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier.  Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen.  That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before.  So chill out everybody.

[a3uge]

Can we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads.  VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations.  Look at this...
1     Mountain West   
2     Big Ten   
3     Big East   
4     Atlantic Coast   
5     Big 12   
6     Pacific-12   
7     Atlantic 10
8     Southeastern
9     Missouri Valley
10     West Coast
11     Conference USA
12     Horizon League

Where do you see us going?  There are only a few reasonable choices.  Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member.  Why?  Only because we have won the HL two years in a row.  Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier.  Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen.  That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before.  So chill out everybody.

^ much more level headed than me, but yeah, exactly.

[agibson]

VU will never get seeded higher then 12 in the HL

There have only been five seasons in the last 19 years where the Horizon League has had to settle for a 13 seed or worse.  Only nine of nineteen where the HL has settled for a 12 seed or worse.  With six multi-bid years in those 19.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_League_Men%27s_Basketball_Tournament

In that context, this year and last look like anomalies.

What makes you think they're part of a new pattern?

[agibson]

The next best player in the class is probably Clay Yeo, a guy coming to Valpo who can dunk on somebody is something to write home about! The last time I remember somebody attempting a dunk on someone was Richie Edwards trying a windmill dunk and failing (can't recall the team he tried it against).

It probably wasn't the most recent time.

But, who was it that Buggs dunked on at UNC?

[valpotx]

You can take the A-10 off of the list in regards to conferences that will often have a higher RPI.  With the 4 defections they are having, they are losing quite a bit in regards to RPI.  Even the worst teams in the A-10 benefit greatly from just playing against these 4 schools.  They may be close to our #12 come 2014-2015, and each of their members is going to be much more East than we want to go.

[vu72]

The next best player in the class is probably Clay Yeo, a guy coming to Valpo who can dunk on somebody is something to write home about! The last time I remember somebody attempting a dunk on someone was Richie Edwards trying a windmill dunk and failing (can't recall the team he tried it against).

It probably wasn't the most recent time.

But, who was it that Buggs dunked on at UNC?

Not sure who it was as I think it was a shot that went over the rim and he rose up, caught it with one hand and slamed it home.  The problem was, it didn't count. No sure why.  It was the game played at the United Center.

[bbtds]

In that context, this year and last look like anomalies.

Anomalies! Don't let the Valpo students hear about those anomalies. They love to attend games with anomalies.     

[usc4valpo]

Such venom is what is absurd...I am not familiar with any of these "handles" you quoted, and The Chicago Trib was referenced only as a newspaper that is read outside Porter County. It's amazing how in less than 24 hours of my initial comments about the schools that VU plays in the HL such a maelstrom of anger has ensued. Ttell me why a small private school is stuck playing against, with the exception of Detroit and Loyola, secondary level state schools, 3,4,5 times their size with much lower academic thresholds. Why? Poor planning on the part of the administration/ath. dept. and lack of vision. You are all heralding the move to the HL as an amazing feat. Really? This was the year to move on and up. The opportunity has passed VU by once again. VU will never get seeded higher then 12 in the HL, and were VERY lucky to win the HL Tourney to get a bid in the first place..... I'm sure you are familiar with the definition of insanity..... I guess you all like being a minor-major fish in a small pond. Step out and see the world guys...see you at Homecoming...

Sorry, Valpo has won the Horizon just once.  They have not dominated the conference and certainly not ready to join the A10 or above.  I am not even sure they are ready for the MVC.  They won once - and next year they will rebuild.  Some of the Horizon league teams actually play good basketball.
Regarding Horizon vs. MVC - UWGB, a middle of the road Horizon team, got blown out by bottom dweller Drake in the MVC.

Valpo is not ready for prime time guys.  They need a few years.  Also, regarding academics, UIC is not a bad school and have good programs. 

[agibson]

In that context, this year and last look like anomalies.

Anomalies! Don't let the Valpo students hear about those anomalies. They love to attend games with anomalies.     

Heh

But, these anomalies give us hope for the future, more or less.  Most of the time the Horizon League produces better NCAA seeds than what Detroit got, better than what we got.  We have reason to expect better next time.