Some Faculty Members are trying to get rid of the Crusader & Change the Mascot..

[VU2014]

I think some people need to get a life.  On the other hand, look at what a big difference it made for Miami of Ohio when they changed their name to Red Hawks,  and Marquette to the Golden Eagles, and Eastern Michigan to whatever.  If you are offended, IT IS YOUR FAULT!

What tangible harm has there been from changing the mascot name at Marquette from Warriors to Golden Eagles? By tangible, I mean reduced donations, lower enrollment, lower academic rankings, reduced placements for new graduates, etc. There is a small and very vocal minority that still complains loudly, but I challenge you to provide evidence or facts on the big difference that you claim.

There was at least $2million that was to be donated to Marquette in order to change name back to Warriors. This came from an alum who offered up $1 million during a graduation address and was quickly matched by another alum. They really wanted the name changed back. Marquette said no, then changed name from Golden Eagles to Gold, until there was more unrest and they changed name back to Golden Eagles.

I'm going to get a puppy next week. If anyone donates $1-2 million to the basketball team I will let them name him lol. Any takers?

[VULB#62]

In order not to physically change the appearance of our cute little mascot, how bout:  The Yellow Knights of the Brown Table.  No, wait, there are too many negative connotaions to that related to lack of courage and what you might do if scared.

[usc4valpo]

Maybe when we are on offense we can start clicking our coconuts, and we must be careful when the cow gets catapulted and drops from the sky. On defense I would assume that we "run away!"

[usc4valpo]

And the Detroit Titans trash talking in their silly French accents...

[vu72]

Perhaps we should adopt a mascot related to nature--you know, a buckeye or a sycamore.  Maybe a color, like "the cardinal".  We would need to make it geographically correct, so, for example, we shouldn't be "the pecans".  So given our location, perhaps the "acorns" or "oaks"  or given the typical weather, perhaps the "grays" or "stormy"  Go ACORNS, GO STORMY"
Just trying to find something that wouldn't offend anyone other than perhaps the Chamber of Commerce!

[AlecPeters101]

Are you kidding me people. The university has been crusader for its whole existence. I can't believe some of you would give it up for some   pussies who are offended. These people mean nothing. They are the type of people that ruin all things fun. If they don't like it they can 1. leave 2. Close their eyes. 3. Ball their eyes out. I have no sympathy for them if they're gonna get that offended. It's annoying as   to be quite honest. Get a life go worry about something important not the god damn name of a university that isn't even offensive. Stand your ground people, in not giving up our name for some low life people with nothing better to complain about.

[justducky]

Perhaps we should adopt a mascot related to nature--you know, a buckeye or a sycamore. 

"Hickory Nuts"  Wait. We don't want to offend any crazy people. 

[VU2014]

http://www.scout.com/story/1593906-oddest-high-school-mascot-in-every-u-s-state

The most unusual high school mascot in every U.S. state

Couple of my Favorites:

Florida - Laurel Hill Hoboes

Illinois - Freeburg Midgets

[bigmosmithfan1]

The university has been crusader for its whole existence.

No, actually they haven't. A quick Google search may help inform you (if not help you to calm down, skippy):

Coincident with the beginning of World War II, Valparaiso University renamed its yearbook from The Uhlan (a German soldier) to The Beacon. The next year Valpo changed its athletic team name from the Uhlans to the Crusaders.

[AlecPeters101]

Hope you don't get offended by my cursing  . It's not that I'm mad, I'm annoyed if anything. People will find anything to complain about.

[ValpoDad89]

I voted no just for the simple fact I have a lot of money invested in Valpo gear nowadays!!!

I also agree that discourse is good but nothing should be changed if the majority feels that it's okay. Crusader translates from the French Croisader (sic) which means one marked with the Cross. Just as Jihad translates to the struggle for God. Any of us that have been baptized have been "marked" with the Cross. Valpo doesn't glorify the Crusader per se but identifies the mascot with a Christian identity. The school welcomes all faiths and affords them ample opportunity to succeed. That should be more of the focus.

I've seen some bad interpretations of what the Crusades were. They were started to combat Islamic aggression into the Western world. I would encourage a look at this to educate one's self into something that cannot simply be labeled a religious war either....http://strangenotions.com/the-crusdades-urban-legends-and-truth/

[ValpoFan]

I find it interesting that the ones who propose that others should not be easily offended are the ones who are themselves offended that this conversation simply took place! Feel free to vote whichever way you want and let others do the same.

Feel free to believe that crusaders have nothing to do with wars, but that does not mean that others must feel the same way. In fact, you should consider that the catholic church (the entity who actually started the crusades) have issued an apology for the crusades and said that it was a dark stage of its history. Being more royal than the king? 

On another note, we have not been the crusaders for our whole existence, we were the Uhlans. Only during WWII, in a frantic move, we became the crusaders simply for the sake of distancing ourselves from the german fighters.

The conversation on campus was initiated by admission people and international recruiters. Admission staff members have reported that in admission fairs, some prospective students are skipping over their booths and making comments that they don't want to be crusaders. International recruiters have explicitly asked for brochures and pamphlets that do NOT have any crusader references. Do you not think that these reports should trigger this conversation?

After all, the University is a business with a brand and a budget. Mascots are used to improve the brand and help with a balanced budget. Shouldn't we check our ego  for the sake of maintaining a balanced budget in these challenging times? Keep in mind that getting 20 more students/year is equivalent to around $1M/year in revenues.

[VULB#62]

BTW, I don't know if this matters or is relevant to the discussion, but our mascot is (1) brown with gold accents, not white with a red cross (as all mideval crusaders are depicted),  and (2) does not exhibit any cross at all on the body or the shield. Also, the Valpo athletics brand/logo does not ccontain a cross, rather a V with a flame and the knight that is used has no cross as a part of the graphic.

(Edit) My observation was not meant to refute Valpofan's post. And thanks Valpofan for the added perspective.  I wrote it while that post was added to the string, and after I released it, I realized that it appeared after it.  One point that needs to be mentioned is that Ulan started out as a Polish light calvary unit that was adopted by numerous northern European military.  The fact that Germany was one of them and that Lutherans, and especially Missouri Synod Lutherans, had a distinctly German heritage probably led to making that leap during the war.

[M]

It's going to be a long offseason on this message board.

[vu72]

This is an interesting debate and one worth staging.  I offer a quote from an article written by Bruce Frohnen titled "Should Christians apologize for the Crusades"  In it he concludes with the following:

There is much to criticize in the actions of the Crusaders, and no doubt even in the motivations of many of them and their leaders. But this is merely to recognize that, being made up of human actions, the Crusades involved the actions of sinners—hence many sins. But to defend one's ally against invasion, to seek to re-open holy sites to pilgrimage, and to defend one's civilization against leaders of another civilization, bent on conquest, is no sin, but rather an act of pious bravery. It is especially odd that so many today are anxious to defend Muslim extremists who claim to be defending their civilization, while rejecting those who defended their own. That peace is a better tool than violence, that toleration and cooperation are crucial sources of stability and the makings of a decent life, are important points. But we who must face massive brutality ought not to focus only on the sins of our forebears. Rather, we should seek to respect and even capture the piety and courage of an era whose violent proclivities we fool ourselves into thinking no longer exist. We should seek, like Crusaders, to stand for our faith and defend our right to live out that faith, including by defending our co-religionists so woefully abandoned to intolerance and outright murder in the Middle East of today. Our means must change, but our current refusal to stand for the right and the just, and to defend Christians suffering martyrdom on a regular basis, is a stain on our character—and one that the Crusaders never bore.

Our schools and our Catholic schools in particular should be proud to associate with those who fought and died to ensure that pilgrims might have access to the holy sites of their faith, that Christian nations might survive in the face of a powerful invader, and that they might serve their Church and their God. We can build on this pride an understanding of other peoples' actions, even when they are extreme, only if and to the extent that we retain our moral compass, which means respecting the dictates of our own civilization and refusing to cede the moral high ground to those who reject it for us all.

Editor's note: This column first appeared February 19, 2016 in Imaginative Conservative and is reprinted with permission. (Photo courtesy of Shutterstock.)

[VULB#62]

It's going to be a long offseason on this message board.

In a good way. I like that this board is more than just Xs and Os and Ws and Ls.

[78crusader]

If some 17 year old kid passes by our table at a college fair and says "I don't want to be a Crusader," don't be fooled--that kid was never gonna come to VU in the first place. To call this kid a "prospective" student is unrealistic. And if by some chance he or she would actually enroll here, make no mistake--they would find something else to bitch and moan about in a big hurry and would wind up being a big pain in the keister.

While I'm at it, I don't think some kid from Saudi Arabia should be able to dictate what our name should be just cause he or she is offended.

Paul

[VULB#62]

This is an interesting debate and one worth staging.  I offer a quote from an article written by Bruce Frohnen titled "Should Christians apologize for the Crusades"  In it he concludes with the following:

There is much to criticize in the actions of the Crusaders, and no doubt even in the motivations of many of them and their leaders. But this is merely to recognize that, being made up of human actions, the Crusades involved the actions of sinners—hence many sins. But to defend one's ally against invasion, to seek to re-open holy sites to pilgrimage, and to defend one's civilization against leaders of another civilization, bent on conquest, is no sin, but rather an act of pious bravery. It is especially odd that so many today are anxious to defend Muslim extremists who claim to be defending their civilization, while rejecting those who defended their own. That peace is a better tool than violence, that toleration and cooperation are crucial sources of stability and the makings of a decent life, are important points. But we who must face massive brutality ought not to focus only on the sins of our forebears. Rather, we should seek to respect and even capture the piety and courage of an era whose violent proclivities we fool ourselves into thinking no longer exist. We should seek, like Crusaders, to stand for our faith and defend our right to live out that faith, including by defending our co-religionists so woefully abandoned to intolerance and outright murder in the Middle East of today. Our means must change, but our current refusal to stand for the right and the just, and to defend Christians suffering martyrdom on a regular basis, is a stain on our character—and one that the Crusaders never bore.

Our schools and our Catholic schools in particular should be proud to associate with those who fought and died to ensure that pilgrims might have access to the holy sites of their faith, that Christian nations might survive in the face of a powerful invader, and that they might serve their Church and their God. We can build on this pride an understanding of other peoples' actions, even when they are extreme, only if and to the extent that we retain our moral compass, which means respecting the dictates of our own civilization and refusing to cede the moral high ground to those who reject it for us all.

Editor's note: This column first appeared February 19, 2016 in Imaginative Conservative and is reprinted with permission. (Photo courtesy of Shutterstock.)

I see the point, but I also acknowlegde that times change and values evolve and I can also see the other side as described by Valpofan.  In these times (much like Ulan during WWII) the Crusader might be too much of an "in your face" kind of thing. There is no obvious solution.

But I think this issue and associated attitudes and perceptions have been exacerbated by the current political climate since the election.  Suddenly the USA is being perceived worldwide as unwelcoming and islamophobic. As an indicator, I just read a news story that projected that US tourism will take a $18 billion hit through 2018 alone in cancelled and reduced foreign bookings. Marriott, as an example, is seeing a 35% -45% decrease in bookings since the travel ban -- and that is not not just from the middle east, it is from all over the world. 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/03/29/trumps-travel-ban-could-cost-18b-us-tourism-travel-analysts-say/99708758/

[yayphoenixyay]

Again, this has nothing to do with "being oversensitive," it has everything to do with aligning one's self with the wrong side of history. We (most of us anyway) laugh at, but often scold those who brandish the confederate flag for the very same reason. The whole, "its our heritage" thing only works if your heritage is objectively inoffensive (by this I mean that a reasonable person who considers the circumstances would generally find no reason to be offended). Clearly, there are grounds for offense to be taken, therefore, don't berate those who do take offense to something like this. I am an unapologetic leftist (not a liberal, way further left) and I personally do not really find the crusader name offensive, but I can coherently rationalize why some might be uncomfortable with it. Be the "knights", "the horsemen", something that is uniquely Valpo, that would be cool. Crusaders are not unique to a Lutheran university (it literally makes zero sense, anyway, that would like my graduate school Marquette, which is Jesuit, going by the name the "Norbertines"). Like I said, I personally couldn't care less, but its not irrational to conceive the idea that some people might be reasonably offended by it.

[humbleopinion]

Quote (selected)
Coincident with the beginning of World War II, Valparaiso University renamed its yearbook from The Uhlan (a German soldier) to The Beacon. The next year Valpo changed its athletic team name from the Uhlans to the Crusaders.

I never knew about "the Beacon".  That actually would be distinctive and certainly in touch with the school's motto.   I appreciate the conversation, and I have learned more about the crusades -- the "strange notions" citation above lost me when they asserted that Luther supported the Turks; many of us remember his lyric (no longer included in hymnals), "Lord keep us steadfast in the word, Curb pope and Turk and all that horde."  However my research turns out, the popular perception of the crusades and its abuses has to be considered in terms of its impact on recruiting students and the long-term viability of the university.  It's of concern that our rival of the 1960's, St. Joe's, closed its doors for next year.

[a3uge]

It's just a word.

[crusadermoe]

What a great and substantive post by VU72 quoting Mr. Frohnen.  This really opens up the issues about the merits of staying steadfast and showing courage in your beliefs. In a more concise form, an old country song says, "if you don't  stand for something, you're gonna fall for anything."

Chances to learn history should always be welcome on message boards and moreso at universities. Several posts ago in this thread, a poster wrote a quick one-liner that made me laugh. He said simply, "Let's not lose our heads over this."  But when you have time, look up the Janisar warriors who fought with the Turks.  The Janisars were warriors in the Turkish armies who were first-born male children taken from their Christian parents as a "blood tax" to the conquering Muslim armies. After a forced conversion to Islam they were made to fight against their own nations and family.  That's a pretty systematic effort to "convert or die" others and not just an anecdote or single instance of rage from a rogue leader.

If you choose not to convert in defeat, you can choose submission sometimes.  People have been allowed to pay the "jizrah" (perhaps not spelled right) as conquered people. It is essentially a tax paid by non-muslims to the dominant muslim government for the high privilege of not being killled.

Indeed, there are many instances in centuries past of Christian dominance and cruelty in Europe, the Americas, and elsewhere.  But in our present day, the Muslim threat has re-emerged. 

This is not a good time to capitulate to muslim sensitivities. Let's be statistically honest.  In reality how many people have been murdered IN THE LAST DECADE by a Jewish killer in the name of Judaism?....how many murdered by a Christian in the name of Christianity,....how many murdered by a Hindu in the name of Hinduism...etc...etc. I would guess you have heard that point driven home.  Or perhaps not.

If history from the 1100s to 1300s is really central to this mascot change idea.  Then looks have the intellectual honesty for Valparaiso to host a forum of speakers equally representing the FULL history of religious conflict through the present.  Note I said, speakers that are EQUALLY representing.  I would like to think VU has the courage to do this.  But I suspect, anyone speaking in the non-PC view would be shouted down by a paid army of protesters as well as a large cohort from within our faculty and student body.     

[ml2]

This is not a good time to capitulate to muslim sensitivities. Let's be statistically honest.  In reality how many people have been murdered IN THE LAST DECADE by a Jewish killer in the name of Judaism?....how many murdered by a Christian in the name of Christianity,....how many murdered by a Hindu in the name of Hinduism...etc...etc. I would guess you have heard that point driven home.  Or perhaps not.

There is actually a pretty lengthy history of Hindu violence against Muslims in India. The example below doesn't fall within the last decade, but the link does give a good overview of the kind of thing that has happened there going back to the days of the British partition and up into the present.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/03/world/asia/gujarat-riots-massacre-india-verdict.html?_r=0

In addition, and more recently, there is significant - potentially genocidal - violence directed against Muslims in Myanmar by the Buddhist majority there.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/05/opinions/rakhine-state-rohingya-genocide-opinion/

[NativeCheesehead]

The whole of human history can pretty much be summed up in, "Oh, you worship a different god? Or the same god a different way? I shall kill you."

[valpo64]

You know, there are lots of people who are up-to-date on the ancient "crusade" thing, etc....Really?  Not attending a school because of its mascot name?   Are you serious?  Come on mascot groupies...there are MANY more important things in this world to discuss than this.  It appears that we have been overwhelmed by the "P C" crowd.