Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[elephtheria47]

Dear MVC,

Get.it.done.

..if not now, then never..

..and that'd be a huge mistake.

Love,

All Missouri Valley fans

[NotBryceDrew]

UT-A should not even be a discussion for the MVC. They've barely ever won anything (3 conference titles and one bid in 50 years) and they're a non flagship state system school.

Belmont and Murray st if any and I'm sorta on the fence if they are a net positive at a 12 team league.

[bbtds]

UT-A should not even be a discussion for the MVC. They've barely ever won anything (3 conference titles and one bid in 50 years) and they're a non flagship state system school.

Belmont and Murray st if any and I'm sorta on the fence if they are a net positive at a 12 team league.

The most important thing to the MVC is that UT-A brings one of the bigger metro areas into the conference. Yes Nashville would be good to have in conference but DFW is the greater prize. West Kentucky/Paducah/S.E.Missouri/tip of Southern IL just doesn't bring much attention to the conference.

[valpo64]

Be careful what you wish for....do we really want to compete in a 12 team league and split the pot 12 ways?  The MVC appears to be so solid I wonder if it is worth trying to expand.  One would have a tough time finding a better mid-major conference anywhere, including levels of competition, strength in a number of sports, TV contracts  and academically.  I can't think of any mid-major conference that when they expanded ended up with another set of problems with memberships on the brink year after year namely who may be leaving and where do we look to add back.

[wh]

Be careful what you wish for....do we really want to compete in a 12 team league and split the pot 12 ways?  The MVC appears to be so solid I wonder if it is worth trying to expand.  One would have a tough time finding a better mid-major conference anywhere, including levels of competition, strength in a number of sports, TV contracts  and academically.  I can't think of any mid-major conference that when they expanded ended up with another set of problems with memberships on the brink year after year namely who may be leaving and where do we look to add back.

In a word - no. For any given year, only 3 possible outcomes result from adding a team:

1. The new team won't perform at the level necessary to win the conference or earn an at-large - just another also-ran (most likely, by far).
2. The new team wins the league or earns an at-large but merely takes an existing team's spot in the process - no net change in bids 
3. The new team wins the league or earns an at-large AND adds to the bid count (least likely by far).

[vu84v2]

Building on these points, another reason to add teams would be a high likelihood of someone leaving. Unless one or more of the MVC's FCS teams plans to move to BCS (which seems very unlikely), I do not see this happening. The best chance of that happening would be the A10 going after a large market program like Loyola, but the A10 already has too many teams (and none of them are going to a football-oriented conference).

[vuny98]

Be careful what you wish for....do we really want to compete in a 12 team league and split the pot 12 ways?  The MVC appears to be so solid I wonder if it is worth trying to expand.  One would have a tough time finding a better mid-major conference anywhere, including levels of competition, strength in a number of sports, TV contracts  and academically.  I can't think of any mid-major conference that when they expanded ended up with another set of problems with memberships on the brink year after year namely who may be leaving and where do we look to add back.

In a word - no. For any given year, only 3 possible outcomes result from adding a team: 1. The new team won't perform at the level necessary to win the conference or earn an at-large - just another also-ran (most likely, by far). 2. The new team wins the league or earns an at-large but merely takes an existing team's spot in the process - no net change in bids 3. The new team wins the league or earns an at-large AND adds to the bid count (least likely by far).

To me adding teams is less about getting an extra bid, or how much money each team will split. The goal for adding teams should be long term league stability. Once stable leagues are in flux and scrambling to fill gaps. So what happens. They take teams they can vs teams that really add true value. If the Big 12 had acted years ago, maybe they could have gotten an ACC or Pac 12 team to join. Instead they wound up with a bunch of AAC teams (I think they actually added decent teams, but certainly not the marquee names). And maybe if they had done that in advance, Texas and Oklahoma may have stayed.

We seem stable now, but it may only be a matter of time before Loyola jumps ship. Maybe another school gets poached by another conference or has FBS aspirations. So, if an opportunity presents itself to add a quality school, I'd say we jump on it. Otherwise in 2-3 years we will be saying crap we only have 8 teams, who can we take. And all of a sudden the Valley may look a lot less attractive to potential suitors.

[elephtheria47]

Vuny hit the nail on the head.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if we get 2 teams in or 4 teams in. We're not keeping up in an arms race with the P5. Its about league sustainability and right now we are attractive. Go make a power move and be proactive instead of reactive.

Wait until our best program moves on, then what is our bargaining power. The MVC is a mid major league. Get 2, hopefully sometimes 3, bids in. Let's solidify our league and add 2 teams that move the needle.

[wh]

What might be in the best interest of the MVC may not at all be in the best interest of Valpo. Let's be honest. We have been mired in mediocrity since we joined the MVC. Our highly successful basketball reputation coming in has taken a huge hit. The team last played in the NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Tournament in 2015. Memories of success are fading with each passing year. We desperately need a breakthrough season just to prove we belong in the MVC, let alone begin to restore our formerly proud standing as a mid major power. If besting 9 other programs has proven beyond our reach, the challenge of besting 11 or 13 high quality mid major programs could prove to be an overwhelming task. Unless we get this turned around soon, at some point in the not too distant future our move to the MVC will have proven to be an abject failure. The last thing we should be promoting right now is how we can turn the mountain were climbing into Mt. Everest.

[valpo95]

Let's not forget that Valpo went 6th, 9th, 6th and 4th in the first four years in the Horizon League. The MVC is way more competitive than the HL, so let's see how things go a bit longer before we fall into thinking that suddenly Valpo is "mired in mediocrity."

[VUGrad1314]

We tried being in a league that  some would say was "what's best for Valpo" where we won basically every year and frequently got to the tournament. What did that get us? Screwed out of an at large bid when we couldn't handle our business and absolutely zero tournament wins because we weren't any higher than a 13 seed. Nobody remembers or cares about programs that get to the tournament and lose in the first round. Do you think anyone outside of their fanbase cares that Wichita State had an unexpectedly great season amid all of that turmoil? Nope. That feel good story and AAC championship got completely washed away by losing to the runner up in their former conference in the first four. That's the headline the casual fan takes away. The money and the benefits are in winning and making runs. Remember how Belmont was crying foul last year because they didn't get into even the NIT last year despite leading Division I in wins? How soon we forget that was basically us in 2016 except much worse because we missed a tournament bid with a team that would have made a run. I have no doubt conference affiliation played a role there and if we had posted similar results as an MVC team that year we would have been in and done some serious damage.

We are now in a multibid league that generates tournament units by being competitive and winning in March. This has made Valpo so much money even if Valpo has not yet been a direct participant in it. Not to mention this is the first conference we have been in that has any real sort of TV deal to speak of. Just these two things alone have brought so much money to the University Valpo otherwise would not have. There is virtually nothing that can happen that could ever brand this move as a failure. Even if schools like Missouri State Northern Iowa Illinois State etc. all went FBS to the MAC Sun Belt or what have you and Valpo gets left behind, even if Loyola gets picked up by an even stronger conference the absolute worst case scenario is that we're in a better stronger version of our old conference. This move was a huge win for the university in so many ways. We haven't been competitive but there's no reason to believe we can't ever be competitive whether that's under Lottich (there's still time for him to turn it around) or somebody else but given some of the headscratching losses we have suffered over the years I think our competitiveness problem might have just as much to do with our decision to hire from within instead of conducting a national search as it does with the overall strength and competitiveness of the MVC.

Adding schools like Murray State and Belmont or other similar programs might not necessarily increase the number of bids or even units but it increases the depth of the conference creates more opportunities for meaningful games boosts SOS (even if by a small amount) and might even add to our TV deal because of the intriguing matchups that could result. I want to see Valpo compete against the best teams possible to prove their mettle as thoroughly as possible for whenever they are able to compete so that what happened in 2016 never happens again to us or any other MVC team. Dominating a weaker conference was fun and all but it did not and will not take us where we want to go. Proving ourselves in the MVC will just as it has for Loyola. Moreover, I want whoever the conference representative(s) are to have as many resume building opportunities as possible and to be as competitive as they can be once they get to March. We may not get more units but adding more good quality teams might get us better seeding which can in turn lead to more units because of favorable matchup draws.

Consider the case of Loyola. Loyola has a final four and a sweet 16 in the past 5 years because of good seeding (an 8 and an 11 those years) a favorable first round draw and (especially in the Final 4 year) a little luck which every Cinderella needs. If the best way to get that done is to bring in some outside help in the form of more quality programs so be it. Let iron sharpen iron. Bring on the rising tide to lift all MVC boats. If Murray State and Belmont want in and\or if there are other additions that make the conference better that can be added (Little Rock? Oral Roberts? The Dakotas? NKU? Wright State?) and they are up for the MVC challenge bring 'em on!

The central topic of this post is Men's basketball but I would be remiss if I did not mention the benefits that would arise in other sports by adding truly premier programs in those sports such as Belmont women's basketball Oral Roberts baseball South Dakota State women's basketball or Wright State baseball. There are schools out there that have the potential to make the conference better in more than one sport. Imagine building a conference that is better than the P5s in baseball or volleyball or women's basketball and forcing those schools to use their tremendous resources to counteract the MVC in those sports. That would leave less money for them to dominate so much in Men's basketball and could provide an opening for us to become a regular 2-3 bid league. Or at the very least even if we remain a 1-2 bid league we can enjoy several ranked teams coming to Valpo every year across multiple sports providing high quality competitive opportunities across the entire athletic department which will help recruiting even more and especially if we can win will boost attendance. Either way, we win as a conference as fans and as an athletic department. That alone might be worth splitting some of the tournament cash more ways because it makes the entire department and student athlete experience (which is what is should be all about anyway) better. Even though we are first and foremost a basketball league, the Valley's reputation as "America's Renaissance Conference" which is strong across the board in several sports means a great deal to me and I hope it does to you and to the MVC decisionmakers because it's really special and beautiful to be a part of something so unique.

Speaking of finances, according to this article we spend the second lowest on basketball of any MVC team I think maybe we could do with maybe trying to spend a bit more to become more competitive. Just increasing our budget by $400K (which I recognize is not an insignificant sum for Valpo especially at this time) would take us from 9th in the MVC to a respectable 4th. Money doesn't always mean success but it certainly helps. The teams at or near the top have been competitive and have made and in the case of Loyola and Drake succeeded in the tournament. The point is this: What's good for the MVC IS what's good for Valpo whether Valpo directly benefits from it or not. Indirect benefits are still benefits and if we're not going to be in a position to directly benefit then we should be all for making the indirect benefits as sweet and far reaching as possible. it will just make the direct benefits whenever they come for us that much greater.

https://www.midmajormadness.com/2021/9/10/22663910/wichita-state-big-12-expansion-shockers-aac-american-realignment-candidate-missouri-valley-mvc

[bbtds]

The post above could be edited to have paragraphs.

I think it would help with reading it and some good thoughts tremendously. 

[AB]

Missouri valley more competitive, but at the time, Valpo joined I would argue the Horizon was equal to the Valley now. Cleveland Stand won the Horizon, won a game in March Madness, Butler made two final 4's, Wright State was a tough out and UWM still had some Bruce momentum (leftovers) The valley is much better league now, with out question

[wh]

Anyone who gleaned from my post that I regret leaving the HL is completely missing the point, and dragging the discussion down the wrong rabbit hole in the process. That said, there is one thing sorely missing from the past - pride of accomplishment. WE steered the ship in the HL, WE made the money that other teams benefited from, WE won the championships, WE enhanced the league's image, WE were at the top of mid major polls, WE elevated the league's RPI, WE got the premier TV matchups, WE had the packed houses, WE were the arrogant fan base everyone loved to hate, WE had the best coaching, WE had the national reputation, and WE were the team to beat. And most importantly, WE HAD AN AMAZING FEELING OF ACCOMPLISHMENT AND THE PRIDE THAT GOES WITH IT.

So here we are 4 years later in a better league, and we lost everything we represented - EVERYTHING. We are a nobody. We've accomplished nothing. We've contributed nothing to the league we're in. '1314, so we've made a lot money off of other teams' tournament performances, and you consider that a big positive of being in the MVC? Apparently it's better to hold out a tin cup than make your own way, so long as you make more money begging than earning.

Do you think this is what the Missouri Valley Conference thought they were signing up for? I'll guarantee you it isn't. And how does it feel going from boat captain to boat anchor? Or is it better to be an anchor, because we get to ride on a fancier boat? How does it feel to be the only team in the conference that didn't get a mention in the recent conference podcast preview? And why? Because we're not even important enough to make sure we don't get overlooked. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

So now you want to talk about expansion and what a great thing that would be. Really? We're struggling to become competitive in a 10-team league, and you want to go to 14 "for the sake of league stability?" Do you know who the podcast hosts' dream additions are? Not Belmont and Murray State - try Wichita State and St. Louis. Better yet, imagine all 4. Take the hole we're in now and magnify it by 10. You said it yourself. We don't have the money or the facilities to compete in a league like that - and we don't. This might be a dream come true at the league office, but it would be Valpo's worst nightmare. THAT was the point I was making when I said be careful what you wish for. I believe we can become competitive in the league as it it, hopefully starting this year, but we're also vulnerable to becoming completely irrelevant in a larger league with a pot full of advantages we can't compete with.

[elephtheria47]

We're okay. Teams take some time to get acclimated to a new conference. Loyola, butler, Xavier,  etc struggled moving conferences.

We made the championship game in the tournament two years ago. We're showing some signs, although not as fast or big enough that we'd all like and aspire for.

You are who you associate with. Much nicer to be associated with Loyola, MoSt, and MVC versus Cleveland state,  green bay, Youngstown,  horizon league

[bb33]

I think for the past two years we were the team everyone thought they should beat....but when push came to shove, Valpo held its own and often surprised teams.  The MVC is especially strong in baseball and the team, although not the best regular season, was a cinderella tournament team, and one of the last four in the tournament.  Being in the MVC is pushing the university to focus on its athletics (they really need a shove).   More active student participation and winning teams has a direct impact on enrollment and student engagement. Facilities matter.  Hopefully they will address our shortcomings and invest in the future.  We do need to get back to driving our own future.  We did it once.  We should be able to do it again.

But I am not sure expanding the MVC will truly impact anything.  I think instability - both conferences and roster- is our new normal. 

[vu72]

College basketball isn't what it once was in the glory Homer Drew era.  As of this moment, there are 1756 players in the transfer portal. that's up from 1012 the year before.  In Bryce's last year there were 800 in the portal and his first year as head coach there were only 577.  I know, everybody has faced the same situation but, we have had two of our best leave.  We haven't had the time to build a team and my guess is that a small private university traditionally has had to build teams from the ground up versus others more able to rebuild much more quickly.

I doubt anybody in the Valley has added more talent from the transfer portal than Valpo.  Now, the time is here--PRODUCE!!!!!!

[wh]

College basketball isn't what it once was in the glory Homer Drew era.  As of this moment, there are 1756 players in the transfer portal. that's up from 1012 the year before.  In Bryce's last year there were 800 in the portal and his first year as head coach there were only 577.  I know, everybody has faced the same situation but, we have had two of our best leave.  We haven't had the time to build a team and my guess is that a small private university traditionally has had to build teams from the ground up versus others more able to rebuild much more quickly.

I doubt anybody in the Valley has added more talent from the transfer portal than Valpo.  Now, the time is here--PRODUCE!!!!!!

I agree with everything you're saying. I'm not disillusioned or disheartened by our first 4 years. I also agree that we have improved our prospects considerably of competing for a championship. That said, if we don't show considerable improvement this year, I think the program needs to go a completely different direction, beginning with a completely new coaching staff, a commitment by the university to upgrade facilities despite its economic woes, etc.

[bb33]

I can't imagine anyone not acknowledging that this is a do or die year, especially the coaches.  I am cautiously optimistic that this team will do exciting things. The Valley is packed, but we should gain some respect.  I am good being the underdog. Very excited for November.

[elephtheria47]

I'm more excited for this season than the other recent ones. I hope for everyone's sake that we have a healthy season. If we get a healthy season, we will get a sense of what we have to do for the future (extend/get rid of ML). Hoping no covid issues or injury issues where we're still gonna be debating it at the end. We have some talent for sure. Let's go get it done on the court now too.

[jtm]

https://www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-belmont-ovc/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Belmont to MVC. Yay 20-game conference schedule.

[wh]

https://www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-belmont-ovc/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Belmont to MVC. Yay 20-game conference schedule.

Big news if it's true.

[valpopal]

And now this from Murray State:
[tweet]1441432351481884672[/tweet]

[elephtheria47]

Yes yes yes yes yesssssss.

Power move. Nabbing two great programs.


Belmont may be announcing as early as next week.

[NativeCheesehead]

Worth pointing out the comparisons to Loyola and Butler are not applicable. Those schools have we do not: multiple large dollar donors and unwavering institutional commitment.