Is Butler "head and shoulders" better than Valpo?

[dcvalpo]

Don't be ridiculous...none of us are Valpo bashing. The only person not in the "reality zone" is you.

[DMvalpo18]

i wish VU72 was right. i want us to be comparable to butler. but let's be real here. nobody remembers losers quite as well as winners are remembered. one exception will, of course, be last year's butler being the runner up to duke. gordon hayward's last second half court desperation shot is now on cbs's "road to the final four" intro, so it's already famous. anyway, no matter how many times we have come close, and have stayed in the game with butler, the truth is that we seldom win. head and shoulders better should be defined by wins, not by how close the score is. is florida state head and shoulders better than Nd because the won by a considerable margin? or vcu head and shoulders above purdue because they won by a lot? i don't think so. but i think how many head to head matchups occur is also important, because we all know morehead st. is not better than louisville. i think VU72 just might have a different definition of "head and shoulders better" than what we all see it as.

[milanmiracle]

but in the end I think if we could ask neutral opponents who's a better team and who they'd rather play when they HAVE to win it would be Butler in a landslide.

I think you mean "but in the end I think if we could ask neutral opponents who's a better team, it would be Butler in a landslide, and if we could ask them who they'd rather play when they HAVE to win it would be Valpo in a landslide."

Also, Butler has a 12.5% winning percentage (IF I did the math correctly) against Valpo since joining the Horizon League. Nobody can debate the games were close, but in the end the "W" matters. A 12.5% winning percentage against an opponent is not close.

Here, I think you meant 87.5% winning percentage.

Your welcome.

Sincerely,
Your friendly neighborhood editor.

Thank you fine sir

[valpo84]

But the difficulty with the statement is over a span of years or right now. Butler is in the Final Four. To their credit, but Valpo is among a small handful of teams who beat them. In OT, in fact the only team that has beat them in OT this season v 5 wins. Head to head this year they split. Home and home, split. Next year, we don't know. Last five years, Butler owned us. The rest is opinion and conjecture. "head and shoulders" leads to debate. No one is going to win or lose. It's a gray question with "talk show" like responses. Butler was co-champs of the league by one game over us. We would have won tie breakers against them. All in all we had a great season that could have been better. Butler is capitalizing on its opportunities. We need to watch and learn. And, 1 bid for the Horizon with back to back final fours, 11 bids for the BigLeast. It would be nice if the Committee had given more teams from the Horizon a chance. Maybe this helps. Obviously, Valpo, UWM and YSU figured it out. And finally, the NCAA is about matchups. Butler has received a nice draw. Florida may have had more size and talent, but lacked coaching and discipline and desire. Pitt was big but plays a similar style to Butler. Butler has better shooters. Wisconsin was the best matchup because Wisc has no offense and a slow down style and players who could play at Horizon League or Big 10 schools. Has the Horizon become the Little 10/11/12? And frankly, the phone isn't ringing off the hook for home and homes/neutrals with Valpo since 1998. But maybe if the BigLeast teams did schedule a few, they might be better tested than the cupcakes and creampuffs they play at home to start the season, but for them it's all about the CASH, not the challenge.

[StlVUFan]

Very well put, 84.

[dcvalpo]

I agree with a lot of what 84 said...however, to see Butler had a good draw is a stretch.  Old Dominion, Pitt, Wisconsin, Florida is about as tough a draw as anyone has gone through.  "Pitt is big" is far underselling how good that team was this year.  You're downplaying what Butler has done here.  Look at it this way, Butler has beaten on average a 4 seed (9, 1, 4, 2)...can anyone else still playing boast that?

[DMvalpo18]

I agree with a lot of what 84 said...however, to see Butler had a good draw is a stretch.  Old Dominion, Pitt, Wisconsin, Florida is about as tough a draw as anyone has gone through.  "Pitt is big" is far underselling how good that team was this year.  You're downplaying what Butler has done here.  Look at it this way, Butler has beaten on average a 4 seed (9, 1, 4, 2)...can anyone else still playing boast that?

rhetorical question of course...what butler has accomplished, and many would agree this year's team has less talent than last year's, is just remarkable.

[cmack]

And, 1 bid for the Horizon with back to back final fours, 11 bids for the BigLeast. It would be nice if the Committee had given more teams from the Horizon a chance. Maybe this helps. 

Before everyone jumps on the bandwagon to trash the Big East, maybe they should wait and see what UConn does in the next 2 games.  Seems to me those Big Least teams beat up on the Huskies pretty well.  And now they are taking out their frustrations on the tournament field.  Having the national champion in your conference makes for a successful season no matter what happens with everyone else.  Not guaranteeing it will happen, just saying that the story isn't written yet.

[valpo84]

UCONN was a tale of two seasons. The beginning with suspensions, illness, injury, and the second season when they had everybody and put it together during the BigLeast Tourney and the Tourney. Are you saying one team justifies the other 10 bids? If so, then the corollary is there should have been at least 3 more Horizon League teams.

As to Butler's track, what they have done is truly a remarkable accomplishment, but had they had to play the draw VCU had would they have matched up as well. My point is match ups not average "seedings". VCU had USC, Georgetown, Purdue, and Florida State. Would Butler have beaten Purdue or Florida State? Butler didn't have to play OSU, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina or UCONN. Pitt was again this year vastly overrated. ODU was another mid-major. Wisconsin was the best 4 seed match up for Butler. But quite frankly and the pundits agreed the SE region was up for grabs and Pitt the first #1 seed to lose.

By the way CMack, I was trashing this year's BigLeast since early in the season (and previous seasons). And let's remember UCONN advanced by beating another BigLeast bubble team and a Steve Fisher coached team.

[zvillehaze]

Would Butler have beaten Purdue or Florida State?

I believe that Butler already beat FSU this year.  I know the "go to card" on this board is to minimize anything Butler accomplishes by declaring with 100% certainly that they would lose certain hypothetical games if those games were played instead of the real games that Butler is playing and winning.  Hard to dispute the potential outcome of these make believe games you bring up, so I won't try.  However, at least give Butler credit for the win over FSU in a game that was actually played.

[StlVUFan]

In my opinion, the days of declaring hypothetical losses for Butler against ANYBODY were over last year.

I don't think anybody knows what Butler would have done against Purdue or anybody else that Butler might have played.  The last 8 tournament games they've played have been proceeded by sweeping pronouncements that included the phrase "there's no way" with respect to Butler beating whomever, and even their loss to Duke was proceeded by iron-clad guarantees that Duke would score at least 70 or 80 points.

Does the phrase "once bitten, twice shy" ring any bells for anyone?

[mj]

You look at Butler and physically they're a team that's similar to us. They don't have those freakishly athletics players you see on the Power 6 conference teams. You could argue that Butler is better than us physically but it's not "head and shoulders" better. At least compared to the difference between us and Kansas.

Where Butler is "head and shoulders" better than us, and the rest of the NCAA, is the intangible side of the game. The desire to win. To never give up. To make the most of the physical talent they have. You could make the argument that the intangibles is Valpo's biggest weakness at this point.

Look at Butler's season toward the end of January. They lose in OT to Milwaukee and us and then go to YSU and lose a heartbreaker. They were in a complete tailspin but somehow regrouped and haven't lost since. Who knows what was said to them, but it worked. Milwaukee had a similar situation, regrouping after getting blown out and going on a winning streak to end the season.


Compare that to Valpo's season. We lose a tough game in Milwaukee and follow it up with a heartbreaker loss to Green Bay. What happens next? We roll over and die and get blown out by Loyola. Instead of bouncing back, we give up on the season.

I'm not sure if you can teach the intangibles or they just come naturally with some players. Maybe Butler just recruits the right type of guys. Either way, that's what makes Buter "head and shoulders" better than us.

[bbtds]

You look at Butler and physically they're a team that's similar to us. They don't have those freakishly athletics players you see on the Power 6 conference teams. You could argue that Butler is better than us physically but it's not "head and shoulders" better. At least compared to the difference between us and Kansas.

Where Butler is "head and shoulders" better than us, and the rest of the NCAA, is the intangible side of the game. The desire to win. To never give up. To make the most of the physical talent they have. You could make the argument that the intangibles is Valpo's biggest weakness at this point.

Look at Butler's season toward the end of January. They lose in OT to Milwaukee and us and then go to YSU and lose a heartbreaker. They were in a complete tailspin but somehow regrouped and haven't lost since. Who knows what was said to them, but it worked. Milwaukee had a similar situation, regrouping after getting blown out and going on a winning streak to end the season.


Compare that to Valpo's season. We lose a tough game in Milwaukee and follow it up with a heartbreaker loss to Green Bay. What happens next? We roll over and die and get blown out by Loyola. Instead of bouncing back, we give up on the season.

I'm not sure if you can teach the intangibles or they just come naturally with some players. Maybe Butler just recruits the right type of guys. Either way, that's what makes Buter "head and shoulders" better than us.

Amen.

[cmack]

Let me sum up my position on all this.  I really don't care one iota about whether we are close to being competitive head to head with Butler.  If that is the small victory that some of our posters are looking for, then hooray for them.  I look at the bigger picture.  I want to see us move to the next level.  I don't expect back-to-back Final Fours.  I just want to see us knock off a legitimate BCS school or ranked opponent.  I want to see us get back to the NCAA Tournament.  At this point, making a run in the NCAA is not an expectation, just a happy bonus.  When I compare my goals to your goals, I see that we are having two completely different conversations.  I wish for more from this program and I discuss the ways to get there and the things that I perceive to be holding us back.  Others look for ways to pat our team on the back for doing next to nothing.  Like I said, two very different conversations.

[rlh]

Let me sum up my position on all this.  I really don't care one iota about whether we are close to being competitive head to head with Butler.  If that is the small victory that some of our posters are looking for, then hooray for them.  I look at the bigger picture.  I want to see us move to the next level.  I don't expect back-to-back Final Fours.  I just want to see us knock off a legitimate BCS school or ranked opponent.  I want to see us get back to the NCAA Tournament.  At this point, making a run in the NCAA is not an expectation, just a happy bonus.  When I compare my goals to your goals, I see that we are having two completely different conversations.  I wish for more from this program and I discuss the ways to get there and the things that I perceive to be holding us back.  Others look for ways to pat our team on the back for doing next to nothing.  Like I said, two very different conversations.

AND two different perceptions.  We're not as far apart as you think, just our perception of what is and is not the most important might vary.  I prefer to look at where we've come in the four years in the conference and see where I think we're headed.  Giving credit for that growth seems not to be unreasonable to me.  As I said, two different perceptions

[cmack]

AND two different perceptions.  We're not as far apart as you think, just our perception of what is and is not the most important might vary.  I prefer to look at where we've come in the four years in the conference and see where I think we're headed.  Giving credit for that growth seems not to be unreasonable to me.  As I said, two different perceptions

Rlh, for one fleeting moment, we may have found something to agree on.

[dcvalpo]

I guess VCU is head and shoulders (of a giant, no less) ahead of us as they beat Kansas

[valpo84]

And being blown out by Valpo gets you a head coaching job in the SEC. Congrats Cuonzo Martin on being hired at Tennessee.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6264533

[chef]

I haven't seen this mentioned, but for the second straight year, Butler has beaten three consecutive top four seeds to reach the final four. I would bet no team has ever done it in back to back seasons, and doubt it will ever happen back to back again in our lifetime. Another incredible stat: All four of their tournament wins this season have come against teams in the top 25 of the RPI, with the last three teams in the top 15. I'm one Valpoite that can't imagine saying anything that would remotely come across as negative toward Butler, after they've accomplished one of the most amazing college basketball accomplishments we may ever see.

[justducky]

Let me sum up my position on all this.  I really don't care one iota about whether we are close to being competitive head to head with Butler.  If that is the small victory that some of our posters are looking for, then hooray for them.  I look at the bigger picture.  I want to see us move to the next level.  I don't expect back-to-back Final Fours.  I just want to see us knock off a legitimate BCS school or ranked opponent.  I want to see us get back to the NCAA Tournament.  At this point, making a run in the NCAA is not an expectation, just a happy bonus.  When I compare my goals to your goals, I see that we are having two completely different conversations.  I wish for more from this program and I discuss the ways to get there and the things that I perceive to be holding us back.  Others look for ways to pat our team on the back for doing next to nothing.  Like I said, two very different conversations.

AND two different perceptions.  We're not as far apart as you think, just our perception of what is and is not the most important might vary.  I prefer to look at where we've come in the four years in the conference and see where I think we're headed.  Giving credit for that growth seems not to be unreasonable to me.  As I said, two different perceptions  SDSs

The further we go with this the more adult the conversation has become. If you remember in mid January the words we were debating in reference to the VU-Butler gap were "not remotely close";which was a quote from some Butler fan or official.

Butler has today a far better program than Valpo. Few will argue. Most of the problem has been with the selection of words used to describe this gap. Proper wording is always important.

Most of us played a little basketball when we were younger and from that perspective our perceptions will often be quite similar. So just for the fun of it, I'd like for 4 or 5 of you to slip on your sneakers, your 18 or 19 year old bodies, grab a basketball and jump in the car. Its summer and we are headed across  town or to the next town over to find a little competition.

So lets says that we have pretty much battled our opponentes to a draw when at the end of game 2 their top gun states with an air of disdain that our team is not remotely close to being as good their bunch, that they are in fact "head and shoulders better" and that  the rubber match needs to have some money riding on it. Real quick there would be a war in progress that would be pretty much unemcumbered by rules. There would be holds,elbows, knees, trips, leaning and pushing, you know-"bad blood". And in that state of mind a guy would have to be crazy to stand in the lane to try to take a charge knowing that the intent of the man comeing towards him is to run right through him.

I think this kind of bad blood mentality is the reason why Butler was on the ropes in February. They took everyones best shot, and from the 2 seed won the tournement and have moved on again to the final 4. I think that the Butler level of success has challenged the league to step foreward with them, and the league has begun to respond. Part of Butlers improvement this year is also due to the leagues improvement. Go Butler! Maybe having a Horizon League national champion can help us find a fulltime center?

[bbtds]

And being blown out by Valpo gets you a head coaching job in the SEC. Congrats Cuonzo Martin on being hired at Tennessee.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6264533

Getting beat by 20 points by Loyola at home doesn't get you a job anywhere either but I'm sure Tennessee didn't choose Cuonzo Martin because he lost to Valpo in one game. Missouri State did win the MVC regular season title and made it to the championship game of the MVC tourney in St. Louis, losing to Indiana State.

[humbleopinion]

After reading this thread, I recall the discussion about whether or not it was appropriate for Valpo fans to rush the court after the victory over Butler.  I haven't checked back on the comments, but I would like to think that each poster who believes that Butler is head and shoulders better than Valpo would have said, "This was a great accomplishment, the type of win that merits rushing the floor."

[dcvalpo]

I had no problem with the students rushing the floor.  They beat the national runner-up.  I see Butler as "national runner-up," not simply "in-state rival."

[dcvalpo]

Maybe I'm missing something here.  What if the Horizon is closer to the CAA than we think?  The CAA (following the George Mason run) has started to get 2-3 teams in a year which allows them to have a chance for more respect/deeper runs (case in point---VCU this season, GMU in 2006).  Perhaps following this Butler run, the Horizon garners more respect and more teams get an opportunity to compete.

I still maintain that Butler is currently head and shoulders above Valpo.  However, if the Horizon begins to receive the respect it deserves, maybe Valpo would have a few more opportunities to "catch up" by making another tournament run.

[cmack]

After reading this thread, I recall the discussion about whether or not it was appropriate for Valpo fans to rush the court after the victory over Butler.  I haven't checked back on the comments, but I would like to think that each poster who believes that Butler is head and shoulders better than Valpo would have said, "This was a great accomplishment, the type of win that merits rushing the floor."

I'm sorry but I still cringed when the students rushed the court. I think that is reserved for beating #1 in the country or winning some kind of championship on a last second shot..  I suppose a few other scenarios as well that I haven't thought about, but not for beating a 4th place team mid-season.