Is Butler "head and shoulders" better than Valpo?

[StlVUFan]

I haven't seen this mentioned, but for the second straight year, Butler has beaten three consecutive top four seeds to reach the final four. I would bet no team has ever done it in back to back seasons, and doubt it will ever happen back to back again in our lifetime. Another incredible stat: All four of their tournament wins this season have come against teams in the top 25 of the RPI, with the last three teams in the top 15. I'm one Valpoite that can't imagine saying anything that would remotely come across as negative toward Butler, after they've accomplished one of the most amazing college basketball accomplishments we may ever see.

I think last year they beat a 12, a 13, then a 1, and a 2 to get to the final four.  This year was indeed a 1, then 4, then 2.

As for the rest of your post, I agree wholeheartedly.

I suspect all this came from a very tantalizing look back at February.  It's sort of like you're some middling runner who just happens to be leading Frank Shorter coming down the stretch, and you stumble over a rock and lose your momentum.  The fact that Frank Shorter (have I got the name right??? ) is clearly the better runner gets clouded in your mind because "you had him" and you let the lead slip through your fingers.

I don't think it's wildly insane to entertain the idea of questioning whether Butler is head-and-shoulders above Valpo.  It's just that when you think rationally about it, the evidence is overwhelming against it.

I return once again to a simple question: so what if they are?  Are we going to get drummed out of the HL because of it?  Should Homer get fired because of it?  Does anybody have a crystal ball that says we'll never reach their level -- ever???

I'd say the answer to each question is a flat NO.

As a Valpo fan, I'm feeling not the least bit insecure about the idea that Butler is head-and-shoulders above us.  I think it gives us a worthy goal to shoot for, one that is not beyond our reach.

[StlVUFan]

I had no problem with the students rushing the floor.  They beat the national runner-up.  I see Butler as "national runner-up," not simply "in-state rival."

More importantly, Butler had no problem with it.  Neither do I.  They are still the standard bearer.

[zvillehaze]

What makes this discussion interesting is that in a lot a ways, people can argue that there isn't much difference between the two teams/programs.  Horizon league record this year, competitiveness in head-to-head games, individual awards all point to teams/programs that are similar.  However, when you compare performance against the best teams on the biggest stage, there's absolutely no comparison in terms of achievement.  I think that's probably where a lot of the frustration comes from ... it's easy to see why Kansas/Duke/UNC are better than Valpo, but it's not apparent to the naked eye why Butler is (or at least has accomplished more.)

Whatever the case, I think you guys should be proud of what Valpo's team accomplished this year and I think you're headed in the right direction.  If you, along with Milwaukee, CSU and WSU start to view an NCAA at-large bid a a realistic possibility, the league has the potential to be a consistent multi-bid league.

[lowposter]

Great point.

At some point in time, the HL needs to be what CAA did this year...at large selections.

At some point in time, the NCAA selection committee needs to get a bit more investigative about their work and select better "teams" not "teams from power conferences."

Butler and VCU in the Final Four...you gotta love it.

lowposter

[valpo84]

cmack, if Butler wins the title, can we call it a retro-rushing of the court as Butler should have been ranked #1? (SI). For bbtds, my post was clearly SI. This Board has become very literal lately.

[DMvalpo18]

cmack, if Butler wins the title, can we call it a retro-rushing of the court as Butler should have been ranked #1? (SI). For bbtds, my post was clearly SI. This Board has become very literal lately.

i think if butler wins it all that makes them number 1, since they are the champions. but of course, as always, the stupid AP polls and espn polls will not make them a preseason number 1 next year. that is always given to power conference teams.

[StlVUFan]

However, when you compare performance against the best teams on the biggest stage, there's absolutely no comparison in terms of achievement.  I think that's probably where a lot of the frustration comes from ... it's easy to see why Kansas/Duke/UNC are better than Valpo, but it's not apparent to the naked eye why Butler is (or at least has accomplished more.)

Rock solid point there.  I don't remember, but I'll bet anything no one gave Butler a prayer of coming close to beating Tennessee in 2008 (for that matter, Florida in 2007 probably as well).  Add to that Syracuse, KSU, MSU, and Duke in 2010, Pitt, Wisconsin, and Florida in 2011.  The last 9 NCAA tourney matchups against Big 6 powers have all been predicted not only as losses for Butler, but smackdowns ("There's NO WAY Butler .... blah, blah, blah").  I was convinced last year.  This year's evidence is merely icing on the cake.  Heck, I haven't even mentioned winning the Great Alaska Shootout and the Preseason NIT which happened in 2007.

The *only* reliable way of identifying the gap between *any* team and Butler is to let them play each other and record the result.  Even then, it's a sample size of 1.  For crying out loud, all these whining pundits and Big 6 fanbases who claim bitterly that if they play 20 times they win 19 of them are also full of it.  *No one* even knows if *that* is true until it actually happens.

The best rationalization I can come up with is: what we are seeing is stark evidence of a chasm between the way the game was meant to be played ideally and the way -- as someone put it recently, can't remember who -- the NBA wants it to be played at the College level.  And those who play it the latter way are simply incapable of dealing with those who play it the former way.  They may win occasionally (Duke last year), but they'll never come close to dominating the way their apologists assure them they should, nor the way they have convinced themselves they should.  Absent a renaissance of some sort, they are doomed to depart any confrontation with the likes of Butler shaking their heads, unable to fathom what just happened, desperately grasping for something to rationalize the mystery away.

And I myself am rationalizing just by trying to explain it somehow, but I have strayed from the main topic, which is: I couldn't agree more that on the big stage there is a significant gap between Valpo and Butler, just as there's a significant gap between just about every mid-major and Butler.  We're in very large company.  I'd say there's still a significant gap between Butler and the rest off the HL.  Even Milwaukee, CSU, WSU, Detroit, along with Valpo are all eating Butler's dust at this point.

But!!!  If we're just talking about one weekend in December plus all of January and February, all that goes out the window, at least for the teams I just mentioned.  Getting on that big stage more often is the key to closing the gap, and we all have it within our reach to win the auto-bid.  There is a recipe for success here.  That's what we should be focusing on.

[dcvalpo]

The best rationalization I can come up with is: what we are seeing is stark evidence of a chasm between the way the game was meant to be played ideally and the way -- as someone put it recently, can't remember who -- the NBA wants it to be played at the College level.  And those who play it the latter way are simply incapable of dealing with those who play it the former way.  They may win occasionally (Duke last year), but they'll never come close to dominating the way their apologists assure them they should, nor the way they have convinced themselves they should. 
focusing on.

Are you saying Duke plays NBA-style basketball?  That is definitely not the program I would have used to make that argument.  Or, are you just saying they have NBA-level talent?

[StlVUFan]

The best rationalization I can come up with is: what we are seeing is stark evidence of a chasm between the way the game was meant to be played ideally and the way -- as someone put it recently, can't remember who -- the NBA wants it to be played at the College level.  And those who play it the latter way are simply incapable of dealing with those who play it the former way.  They may win occasionally (Duke last year), but they'll never come close to dominating the way their apologists assure them they should, nor the way they have convinced themselves they should. 
focusing on.

Are you saying Duke plays NBA-style basketball?  That is definitely not the program I would have used to make that argument.  Or, are you just saying they have NBA-level talent?

If Duke is an exception, then I stand corrected.  I don't pretend to know what NBA-style basketball is, since I have no use for the NBA as a fan.  I have seen this very argument that I was trying to capture made over at Rush the Court or Ballin' is a Habit or somewhere recently.  I'm just playing around with ideas here.

Maybe Duke was more like Butler than they were like the NBA, I don't know.  And it's a generalization, which are always prone to some error.

I would say that Duke *does* fall into the category of programs that have McDonald's All-Americans lined up at their doorstep, begging to play for them, and they do send a bunch of guys to the NBA on a regular basis (I don't mean every year they send a bunch of guys, but, say, over any given 4-year period).

[lowposter]

I think Duke is much more similar to Butler than not.

But your description is spot on.  Make the comparison between just about any of the Big East teams and Butler.  I watched my first NBA game last weekend (Bulls) and was pleasantly surprized in the development of the game.  The college game is much more entertaining to me, but the NBA (or perhaps Derrick Rose) is certainly providing a better product than in the past.

Butler currently has the ability to find the very good high school players that continue to develop at the next level.  Duke has the fully developed players (McDonalds AA) enrolling.  Who would you rather have....Matt Howard or one of the Plumlees?  Sheldon Mack or Nolan Smith?  Gordan Hayword or Kyle Slingler?  Throw in a Hahn, Veasley, Van Zandt, Norrad, and Smith who are all just a level or two below the McDonalds levels, but are VERY SOUND players that can each do something quite well...and you have a solid program.  Check the egos at the door please.

How about 4 years ago?  No contest.  What will be interesting to see is as the major Butler talent leaves, will it be replaced at the same level (or higher)?  Marshall seems to exhibit a high level.  One could say he is an improvement over Veasley (hate to say that...he was a player).  Smith has made major contributions and allowed Howard to stay on the floor much longer.  But, the replacement of Howard and Mack will be a considerable task. 

One cannot discount the high level of defense played by Butler.   Nothing is easy against them, particularly in March and April.

[valpo95]

As I was thinking about it, in the main, many of the Butler / Valpo games have been competitive -- hence it is difficult for me to say they are dramatically better than Valpo.

We all applaud Butler for doing so well in the tournament.  This raises the profile of the league for sure, and increases the probability of becoming a multi-bid conference.  It has got to help recruiting as well, as it is easier to say that "We will play Butler twice next year" and "By the way, we went 1-1 against them this year." 

The other thing is that Butler has guys who have played together for quite some time -- some of the other teams in the tournament are filled with younger, less experienced players.  While they may have more pure talent (see Kentucky, for example), there is something to be said for experience in a variety of settings.

[dcvalpo]

Butler currently has the ability to find the very good high school players that continue to develop at the next level.  Duke has the fully developed players (McDonalds AA) enrolling.  Who would you rather have....Matt Howard or one of the Plumlees?  Sheldon Mack or Nolan Smith?  Gordan Hayword or Kyle Slingler?  Throw in a Hahn, Veasley, Van Zandt, Norrad, and Smith who are all just a level or two below the McDonalds levels, but are VERY SOUND players that can each do something quite well...and you have a solid program.  Check the egos at the door please.

Not sure I completely agree.  The media may push Nolan Smith, Kyle Singler, et al as the top stars in the nation, but why would I necessarily take them over Howard and Mack?  On the big stage, when Butler plays great teams, those two have been All-Americans.  I think if you put those guys on a Duke, Kentucky, UConn, etc they are stars.  Forget the names on the jerseys and the familiarity for a second---who has been better than Mack in this tournament?  The guys you know by first names---Kemba and Jimmer.  That's about it.  Am I supposed to write that off as 4 good games (well, really 10 considering last year)?

Now, I completely agree with you when it comes to the roleplayers.  Butler's 3-12 pale in comparison to the 3-12 for a Duke or Kansas.  That is where you have to give credit to the system and the coach.

[lowposter]

Just to make myself clear...I will take Howard/Mack over Plumlee/Smith now.

But four years ago? 

I think Butler caught lightning in a bottle again with Marshall.  He was obviously motivated that his home state university (Florida) didnt even recruit him. 

Here is the deal...the majors are recruiting early and often the young men as 15 / 16 year olds.  Often these young men are physically developed and are head and shoulders above the competition.  Sometimes the growth and development of others skyrocket and these young men become attractive later.  I think Butler is expert at recognizing these men.  It would be interesting to compare who they offer scholarships to and at what stage in their high school careers.

AAU season is starting up.  The spring session has just begun.  Go plunk down $10 at a tournament and check out the talent.  If you really want to see a meat market, go in July when the coaches are allowed to observe.  It is actually pretty good level of basketball.  The sideshows and drama off court are often just as interesting.

lowposter

[sectionee]

They are recruiting them much younger than 15/16 years old.  New rules allow schools to recruit kids as young as 12/13 (7th graders), which I think is ridiculous.  Completely agree with Marshall, I think he is going to have a breakout year next season for Butler.

[milanmiracle]

Just to make myself clear...I will take Howard/Mack over Plumlee/Smith now.

But four years ago? 

I think Butler caught lightning in a bottle again with Marshall.  He was obviously motivated that his home state university (Florida) didnt even recruit him. 

Here is the deal...the majors are recruiting early and often the young men as 15 / 16 year olds.  Often these young men are physically developed and are head and shoulders above the competition.  Sometimes the growth and development of others skyrocket and these young men become attractive later.  I think Butler is expert at recognizing these men.  It would be interesting to compare who they offer scholarships to and at what stage in their high school careers.

AAU season is starting up.  The spring session has just begun.  Go plunk down $10 at a tournament and check out the talent.  If you really want to see a meat market, go in July when the coaches are allowed to observe.  It is actually pretty good level of basketball.  The sideshows and drama off court are often just as interesting.

lowposter

They are recruiting them much younger than 15/16 years old.  New rules allow schools to recruit kids as young as 12/13 (7th graders), which I think is ridiculous.  Completely agree with Marshall, I think he is going to have a breakout year next season for Butler.

And some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

[zvillehaze]

And some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

[DMvalpo18]

And some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

how did we not recruit hayward? i'm sure the coaching staff regrets that.

[milanmiracle]

And some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Acutally I am from the area, and knew he was very good early on, but I am not refering to Valpo when I talk about dumb luck. I am talking about the North Carolina's, Dukes, Purdue's and even Michigan not knowing as much about him since he wasn't a big part of the AAU circuit and wasn't spending all of his time on basketball (a positive in my opinion). Dumb luck is getting a guy from your town who flew under the radar enough to go to the local school yet ended up in the NBA draft just two years later.

[zvillehaze]

And some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Acutally I am from the area, and knew he was very good early on, but I am not refering to Valpo when I talk about dumb luck. I am talking about the North Carolina's, Dukes, Purdue's and even Michigan not knowing as much about him since he wasn't a big part of the AAU circuit and wasn't spending all of his time on basketball (a positive in my opinion). Dumb luck is getting a guy from your town who flew under the radar enough to go to the local school yet ended up in the NBA draft just two years later.

Tha's fair.  Butler certainly has benefited from getting guys who could have gone to larger schools (Hayward, Howard, Mack), but chose Butler instead.

[wh]

Disrespecting/dismissing the only 1st round draft choice in the history of the Butler program: 

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7394/Gordon-who

Just one of hundreds of examples from the Butler board that provide proof positive that trashing your own players and former players does not negatively affect recruiting.  Otherwise, Butler would have the worst program in college basketball. 

[milanmiracle]

Disrespecting/dismissing the only 1st round draft choice in the history of the Butler program: 

http://buhoops.yuku.com/topic/7394/Gordon-who

Just one of hundreds of examples from the Butler board that provide proof positive that trashing your own players and former players does not negatively affect recruiting.  Otherwise, Butler would have the worst program in college basketball. 

Wow! You read that as trashing Gordon Hayward? I guess that goes to show how people interpret things differently. All I read was that the team last year was more than just Hayward carrying the team. I personally thought it was fine.

[bbtds]

And some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Acutally I am from the area, and knew he was very good early on, but I am not refering to Valpo when I talk about dumb luck. I am talking about the North Carolina's, Dukes, Purdue's and even Michigan not knowing as much about him since he wasn't a big part of the AAU circuit and wasn't spending all of his time on basketball (a positive in my opinion). Dumb luck is getting a guy from your town who flew under the radar enough to go to the local school yet ended up in the NBA draft just two years later.

I remember seeing Gordon Hayward playing for Brownsburg on channel 23 on MyIndy TV's high school sports show but he really hit the radar when he made a last second shot for the win against Zeller and the Washington Hatchets in the 3A Indiana state championship game in 2008.

[dcvalpo]

That thread did seem to be bashing Gordon a little bit...or at least being very dismissive of what he brought to the program.

[milanmiracle]

And some of it's just dumb luck. Gordon Hayward was a tennis player who was concentrating on winning the state title more so than the summer basketball circuit.

Easier to call it luck than to admit a Lutheran kid who became an NBA Lottery pick wasn't recruited by Valpo.  Those of us in the area knew of this kid from junior high and by the time he commited, was also being pursued by Michigan and Purdue.  His focus on winning the state tennis tournament came between his junior and senior years ... after he committed to Butler and decided not to play AAU to focus on tennis.

Acutally I am from the area, and knew he was very good early on, but I am not refering to Valpo when I talk about dumb luck. I am talking about the North Carolina's, Dukes, Purdue's and even Michigan not knowing as much about him since he wasn't a big part of the AAU circuit and wasn't spending all of his time on basketball (a positive in my opinion). Dumb luck is getting a guy from your town who flew under the radar enough to go to the local school yet ended up in the NBA draft just two years later.

I remember seeing Gordon Hayward playing for Brownsburg on channel 23 on MyIndy TV's high school sports show but he really hit the radar when he made a last second shot for the win against Zeller and the Washington Hatchets in the 3A Indiana state championship game in 2008.

Umm...where to begin here...

Brownsburg played Marion for the 4A state title, where Hayward did hit the game winning shot.
Washington actually won the 3A title that year.

[StlVUFan]

That thread did seem to be bashing Gordon a little bit...or at least being very dismissive of what he brought to the program.

One guy questioned whether he got too much credit.  The rest of it was complimentary of the Butler Way.

Hardly what I'd call "very dismissive".